Grandparent looking for advice
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Hi, I’ve just joined this forum and this is my first post. I’m looking for some advice and any input that may be useful.
My son in law was arrested nearly a year ago regarding downloading indecent images of children. He told us later that this was a result of an IP address check. He was taken and questioned during which time he did not request a solicitor. His (and my daughter’s) devices were seized. When we talked to him about this he claimed that the police were investigating an incident of downloading and that he was wholly innocent, which is why he did not feel the need for a solicitor. He claimed that they would not find anything on the devices, because there was nothing to hide and he has maintained his innocence all this time. At that time my daughter stood by him, although he was bailed and could not stay in a house overnight with a minor present (including his own home). Child Services also imposed an order preventing seeing our grand daughter unless one of us was present. he and we have followed all conditions to the letter. He claims to know very little about the origin or substance of the allegations. The devices have still not been examined as yet. Over the course of this last year the marriage has steadily broken down and now looks completely irretrievable. My queries are these.
1) would the police really act on a single allegation? What alerts them and what actually triggers an investigation?
2) what details must the police give about the allegations to my son in law. Eg details such as exact date/time etc (to see if was actually at home when an offence took place) and where the allegation originated from (eg from an individual or from his internet service provider). He claims to know very little about the details, but we don’t know whether to believe him. I could see why they would not give at least some details at this stage so as not to allow him to construct a narrative against them.
3) does my daughter have any rights to know any details of the actual allegations against him (such as those already shown above) directly from the police before he is charged? I suspect I know the answer to this already but would be grateful for any experiences.
4) given the allegations, I am actually quite surprised that both the police and CS have not followed up on either my daughter and grand daughter at all in nearly a year. They assessed the risk of harm to our grand daughter as very low, which makes us really confused as to the nature and scope of the allegations and police investigation. It’s almost as if neither organisation is taking this particularly seriously. That is despite the fact that when they came to raid the house, there were four carloads, making absolutely sure the neighbours were aware as they arrived.
I have no idea if he is innocent or guilty and any answers to the questions above may help us in whether we believe him or not. Some people would say innocent until proven guilty. Others say no smoke without fire. One hears of cases of hacking of people’s WiFi as apparently security on home WiFi is generally very poor. Even if they find nothing on the devices, can we be sure he is innocent, even if he is discharged? Our grand daughter is very young and so far we have managed to shield her to a large extent, but this will come to a head soon, when the split occurs fully. Should he be charged, that will hasten things further which we are dreading. Our daughter has been severely traumatised by the whole experience and the longer this goes on the more severe the long term scars will be. To me it is completely unacceptable that anyone should have to wait for so long between arrest and charging or discharging on such a crime as this, especially given the profound effects on the innocent family around the alleged perpetrator. If anyone can help us from their experience or profession, that would be incredibly helpful. Frankly we are at our wits end. I have never even seen the inside of a police station let alone been involved in anything. Sorry to go on at such length.
My son in law was arrested nearly a year ago regarding downloading indecent images of children. He told us later that this was a result of an IP address check. He was taken and questioned during which time he did not request a solicitor. His (and my daughter’s) devices were seized. When we talked to him about this he claimed that the police were investigating an incident of downloading and that he was wholly innocent, which is why he did not feel the need for a solicitor. He claimed that they would not find anything on the devices, because there was nothing to hide and he has maintained his innocence all this time. At that time my daughter stood by him, although he was bailed and could not stay in a house overnight with a minor present (including his own home). Child Services also imposed an order preventing seeing our grand daughter unless one of us was present. he and we have followed all conditions to the letter. He claims to know very little about the origin or substance of the allegations. The devices have still not been examined as yet. Over the course of this last year the marriage has steadily broken down and now looks completely irretrievable. My queries are these.
1) would the police really act on a single allegation? What alerts them and what actually triggers an investigation?
2) what details must the police give about the allegations to my son in law. Eg details such as exact date/time etc (to see if was actually at home when an offence took place) and where the allegation originated from (eg from an individual or from his internet service provider). He claims to know very little about the details, but we don’t know whether to believe him. I could see why they would not give at least some details at this stage so as not to allow him to construct a narrative against them.
3) does my daughter have any rights to know any details of the actual allegations against him (such as those already shown above) directly from the police before he is charged? I suspect I know the answer to this already but would be grateful for any experiences.
4) given the allegations, I am actually quite surprised that both the police and CS have not followed up on either my daughter and grand daughter at all in nearly a year. They assessed the risk of harm to our grand daughter as very low, which makes us really confused as to the nature and scope of the allegations and police investigation. It’s almost as if neither organisation is taking this particularly seriously. That is despite the fact that when they came to raid the house, there were four carloads, making absolutely sure the neighbours were aware as they arrived.
I have no idea if he is innocent or guilty and any answers to the questions above may help us in whether we believe him or not. Some people would say innocent until proven guilty. Others say no smoke without fire. One hears of cases of hacking of people’s WiFi as apparently security on home WiFi is generally very poor. Even if they find nothing on the devices, can we be sure he is innocent, even if he is discharged? Our grand daughter is very young and so far we have managed to shield her to a large extent, but this will come to a head soon, when the split occurs fully. Should he be charged, that will hasten things further which we are dreading. Our daughter has been severely traumatised by the whole experience and the longer this goes on the more severe the long term scars will be. To me it is completely unacceptable that anyone should have to wait for so long between arrest and charging or discharging on such a crime as this, especially given the profound effects on the innocent family around the alleged perpetrator. If anyone can help us from their experience or profession, that would be incredibly helpful. Frankly we are at our wits end. I have never even seen the inside of a police station let alone been involved in anything. Sorry to go on at such length.
Welcome
The person I know who comminted the crime the police received information a few months before the arrest, so I am guessing this is normally the case as they would gather evidence before the arrest
The police will be monitoring activity online and the have people who work to track down offenders. They may get caught for eg if sharing images with someone else (But unknown to them it is someone undercover!) Some crimes can go on many years as offenders have clever ways of hiding on the internet, but when they slip up they can be caught, or if reported, etc. Also with a raid the police I would assume would have gathered some clear evidence to warrant that. It is hard as it takes so long for devices to be investigated and delays in the system.
The fact they have not got a solicitor is odd as they need one, when/if it comes to being charged they would be notified of what they are being charged with. Cat A is the worst through to C, person I know took full responsibility, did all these courses etc so actually they didn't go to prison or anthing like that it feels like people get let off the more they plead guilty compared to not guilty.
The person I know who comminted the crime the police received information a few months before the arrest, so I am guessing this is normally the case as they would gather evidence before the arrest
The police will be monitoring activity online and the have people who work to track down offenders. They may get caught for eg if sharing images with someone else (But unknown to them it is someone undercover!) Some crimes can go on many years as offenders have clever ways of hiding on the internet, but when they slip up they can be caught, or if reported, etc. Also with a raid the police I would assume would have gathered some clear evidence to warrant that. It is hard as it takes so long for devices to be investigated and delays in the system.
The fact they have not got a solicitor is odd as they need one, when/if it comes to being charged they would be notified of what they are being charged with. Cat A is the worst through to C, person I know took full responsibility, did all these courses etc so actually they didn't go to prison or anthing like that it feels like people get let off the more they plead guilty compared to not guilty.
Thanks for the replies. When he was arrested, he claims he was told it related to something from 3 months previously and thought it was one incident, but that this was not made clear. I agree that he should have asked for a solicitor at that time, but we can't change that now. Since then he has contacted a couple of solicitors but has been told by them that there is no point in having one unless or until charges are made. I have told him that a solicitor may be able to get more detail as to the nature of the allegations, but he doesn't want to pay at the moment. Is there any way of speeding the process up or at least getting some clarification on the allegations? We don't know if he is being vague because he doesn't know the ful nature himself or because he is being evasive. We simply don't know how much the police are obliged to disclose to him at this stage, ie after initial interview but prior to charging.
Hi,
I felt I had to reply as this sounds similar to my case. We were investigated and all devices seized. We were only given vague details such as the month it happened and that it was three images shared on an app. The police were alerted via our IP address. We got no other details. My partner was adamant he hadn't done it. We were both traumatised by it all especially the horrendous treatment by the police. Five months later all devices were returned, all clean nothing found, case closed. At that point they told us it was the Kik app and they said there was a possibility our IP was hacked. There was never any formal questioning although we did get a solicitor the day it happened. We didn't need her in the end. The solicitor did say that often nothing is found in these cases and another specialist solicitor I spoke to said IP addresses can be very unreliable even though search warrants are obtained with only the IP address as evidence. There can be differences in time and date formats and IP addresses can be shared. If you look it up you can find more info.
We tried to find out more info through data access requests but apparently as there were no charges we were not entitled to any more details such as exact time and date of incident. The police never even confirmed our IP address, it beggars belief.
So in terms of whether your daughter's partner has been given more details I would say not at this stage. That only happens at charging stage.
I decided to look at the facts only and nothing found was enough for me. Yes there are days I have wobbles and think but why did this happen and I get really angry which makes me sad as it doesn't look like we will ever have answers.
I hope this answers some of your questions, we chose to tell very few people as there will always be a no smoke attitude unfortunately.
I felt I had to reply as this sounds similar to my case. We were investigated and all devices seized. We were only given vague details such as the month it happened and that it was three images shared on an app. The police were alerted via our IP address. We got no other details. My partner was adamant he hadn't done it. We were both traumatised by it all especially the horrendous treatment by the police. Five months later all devices were returned, all clean nothing found, case closed. At that point they told us it was the Kik app and they said there was a possibility our IP was hacked. There was never any formal questioning although we did get a solicitor the day it happened. We didn't need her in the end. The solicitor did say that often nothing is found in these cases and another specialist solicitor I spoke to said IP addresses can be very unreliable even though search warrants are obtained with only the IP address as evidence. There can be differences in time and date formats and IP addresses can be shared. If you look it up you can find more info.
We tried to find out more info through data access requests but apparently as there were no charges we were not entitled to any more details such as exact time and date of incident. The police never even confirmed our IP address, it beggars belief.
So in terms of whether your daughter's partner has been given more details I would say not at this stage. That only happens at charging stage.
I decided to look at the facts only and nothing found was enough for me. Yes there are days I have wobbles and think but why did this happen and I get really angry which makes me sad as it doesn't look like we will ever have answers.
I hope this answers some of your questions, we chose to tell very few people as there will always be a no smoke attitude unfortunately.
Thanks so much for your replies. They have been very helpful. They seem to concur with what our son in law has been saying about the vague nature of the allegations in his case. So he may be being honest about it, or alternatively, lying through his teeth, or anywhere in between. He has denied that he has been on dark web or chatrooms, but has downloaded mainstream movies and tv shows by illegal means (bit torrents). Is it possible that is a source? Of course we don't know what actually happened in his interview, so we have no idea whether what he he has been completely honest with us.
Thanks again for the replies. I am obvously more naive than I realised when it comes to the internet. I had always thought myself to be reasonably savvy. Would I also be right in assuming that if nothing is found on his devices, it doesn't necessarily mean he is automatically innocent or cleared, as he could have deleted or covered up illicit material and it would depend on the nature of the allegations such as whether he's been on social media etc rather than downloading things to his computer. I'm finding as this goes on I'm gaining an awful lot of unpleasant knowledge, which I'd really rather never have known and now can't forget. Although this is horribly selfish and I am a bit ashamed to say this, there are times when I just want a resolution one way or another and then we can move on and deal with the consequences. Then the guilt kicks in and we are just hoping for the best resolution for them that can be made for my daughter and grand daughter.
Hi,
I agree with Lee if there is anything there it will be found even deleted files. I have seen cases where images were found in the form of pop ups and thumbnail images which were downloaded unaware to the person being investigated but I think in a lot of these cases charges are dropped as it is obvious the images were not looked for.
I think calling the helpline is a good idea for both yourself and your daughter. Unfortunately until the investigation is finished you will not have answers so you need to try and stay strong. Hoping for a good outcome for you all.
I agree with Lee if there is anything there it will be found even deleted files. I have seen cases where images were found in the form of pop ups and thumbnail images which were downloaded unaware to the person being investigated but I think in a lot of these cases charges are dropped as it is obvious the images were not looked for.
I think calling the helpline is a good idea for both yourself and your daughter. Unfortunately until the investigation is finished you will not have answers so you need to try and stay strong. Hoping for a good outcome for you all.
I think what I mean by the nature of the allegations is what informed the police in their decision to arrest and look for the incriminating material rather than the type of material, eg was it an individual who made some accusations, an ISP report of webaite activity or messaging via a chatroom or social media app. Maybe I'm obsessing or overthinking about this, but it seemed that certain routes may have a higher likelihood of deliberately downloaded material than others. Make no mistake, if he is guilty of anything, I want to see him appropriately punished. By nature I didn't mean the type of material downloaded. Sorry if I appeared to be trivialising things somehow, as that was certainly not my intention
I was pretty sure the police could detect deleted files from other posts on here and from what I had reseached and heard. As far as I am concerned the more thoroughly they can look the better, as it's then more likely his guilt or innocence will be correctly established.
Hi oldienotmouldy,
I understand your need to try and rationalise and figure out guilt, it so hard for such massive changes to occur with so little information. I just wanted to say how the amount of research you are doing shows amazing support for your daughter. Unfortunately the only person who will know what was happening is your son-in-law. On here there are many stories of people who deny everything and are not charged, and many stories of people who deny everything and then get found guilty of varying offences.
I just wanted to advise you and your daughter about any SS contact. It is important for her (and you if interviewed) to say that until there is evidence either way you will be protective of the child as if he is guilty. Even if it's only a small possibility they will need to see that you take this very seriously.
I'll also add a bit from when the police were first at my house. I asked them how likely this was to be an accident. One replied 'put it this way - how often have you been on the internet? And how often have you come across these types of images?'.
My answers in my head were 'a lot' and 'never'. Now by that point in our situation they had probably found some evidence and search terms etc as seemingly my husband (now seperated) had a long running addiction to all porn, but I think the question stands either way. It might only be 3 clicks away, but surely the first rule of the internet is don't just click on stuff.
Anyway like I started with the only person who would have answers to your questions is the person involved. You can drive yourself mad trying to find answers when actually there is no way of doing that, just endless possibilities. It's going to be a long road and I've found the only thing to do is focus on today and try to put worries into categories of things-i-can-change and things-i-can't-change. The latter go in a mental box for another time.
Be kind to yourself x
I understand your need to try and rationalise and figure out guilt, it so hard for such massive changes to occur with so little information. I just wanted to say how the amount of research you are doing shows amazing support for your daughter. Unfortunately the only person who will know what was happening is your son-in-law. On here there are many stories of people who deny everything and are not charged, and many stories of people who deny everything and then get found guilty of varying offences.
I just wanted to advise you and your daughter about any SS contact. It is important for her (and you if interviewed) to say that until there is evidence either way you will be protective of the child as if he is guilty. Even if it's only a small possibility they will need to see that you take this very seriously.
I'll also add a bit from when the police were first at my house. I asked them how likely this was to be an accident. One replied 'put it this way - how often have you been on the internet? And how often have you come across these types of images?'.
My answers in my head were 'a lot' and 'never'. Now by that point in our situation they had probably found some evidence and search terms etc as seemingly my husband (now seperated) had a long running addiction to all porn, but I think the question stands either way. It might only be 3 clicks away, but surely the first rule of the internet is don't just click on stuff.
Anyway like I started with the only person who would have answers to your questions is the person involved. You can drive yourself mad trying to find answers when actually there is no way of doing that, just endless possibilities. It's going to be a long road and I've found the only thing to do is focus on today and try to put worries into categories of things-i-can-change and things-i-can't-change. The latter go in a mental box for another time.
Be kind to yourself x
Paris.... I saw your comment about poor treatment from the police. Did they try to brainwash you against your partner and treat him as guilty even though he was innocent? This is the first time I have seen someone say the police weren't great with them - I thought I was the only one!
It's the effect on my daughter which has driven me to try to seek some answers, but it looks as if we are just going to have to wait it out. Even if he were discharged tomorrow their marriage is now destroyed simply due to the length of time the process has taken. She has been completely ground down. As awful as it sounds I believe she would be in a better place if he had been charged a couple of months in than if he were discharged now. All we can do is support her as best we can, but I am so angry and bitter about this shambles of a process.
Hi Baffled,
Sorry I missed your post yes the police treatment was awful completely took a guilty stance came in all guns blazing, a complete show of bravado from the lead officer. Asked my partner inappropriate questions in front of our very young children. Asked my partner where he was from (he's mixed race). Tried to insinuate I had a black eye and had my partner done anything to me (it was smudged mascara from crying). When I asked could this be a mistake they said no! It was farcical the whole thing.
Completely different attitude when they dropped the all cleared devices back and the lead officer was nowhere to be seen. We made a complaint directly against him but it didn't go anywhere as there was not enough evidence but we expected that to be honest.
I was so shaken for months after, every knock at the door and I was right back to that day.
Sorry I missed your post yes the police treatment was awful completely took a guilty stance came in all guns blazing, a complete show of bravado from the lead officer. Asked my partner inappropriate questions in front of our very young children. Asked my partner where he was from (he's mixed race). Tried to insinuate I had a black eye and had my partner done anything to me (it was smudged mascara from crying). When I asked could this be a mistake they said no! It was farcical the whole thing.
Completely different attitude when they dropped the all cleared devices back and the lead officer was nowhere to be seen. We made a complaint directly against him but it didn't go anywhere as there was not enough evidence but we expected that to be honest.
I was so shaken for months after, every knock at the door and I was right back to that day.
Omg Paris that is so funny (not haha) that your partner is a person of colour because so is mine and there are a few things which tell me that both himself and me received such poor treatment because of the police's personal prejudice! Are you from the North West? If so I hope you complained because it'll highlight the truth when I complain too! Glad it's all been dropped for you.
I'm so sorry to hear that lee! I see all of your posts and see what wonderful support you provide to everyone on this forum and really salute you. I hope you get your justice. Even if my partner is found guilty I will still complain about the way I was treated and I urge anyone who has experienced an ounce of poor treatment from the police to do so. I know we are not the victims in these crimes (and suspected crimes) but my God is it hard to deal with and the wait to find out what is going on is torturous, like a prison sentence in your mind.
Over a year now since the police raid and still no news on my son in law. However my daughter's marriage has completely disintegrated and they have separated and heading for divorce. We do know that the computers have been being examined now for at least 8 weeks but as yet we have had no indication of anything happening. Social services have told my daughter that they believe given the timeframes, he is likely to be charged with something. Don't know whether to believe them or not but as they have separated would our daughter be automatically told if he was charged, either by the police themselves or social services, or is she reliant on her husband telling her?
Hi,
If they have split up I would think it is down to her ex hubby, and depending on wat ss said or are saying they may tell her, ( I would think it depends on if he has contact with then or not ) hope this helps
If they have split up I would think it is down to her ex hubby, and depending on wat ss said or are saying they may tell her, ( I would think it depends on if he has contact with then or not ) hope this helps
I would hope social services would let her know as it could have a potential effect on any care plan arrangements. I suppose if charged he would still be innocent until proved guilty, so it may not have any effect on the plan. Social services may only inform her if there need to be changes, I suppose. I suspect the police themselves will not tell my daughter. They don't appear to give a monkeys about her or my grand daughter's welfare in all this.
I was contacted by the police risk assessor who will be looking after my (ex) husband's case. She wanted to check what he had told her was accurate about how much he'd told me, contact with children etc. She also said if I had any questions at all to let her know, especially coming up to sentencing, and that she was there to support the family too (even though we separated the day of the knock). She was very understanding of how difficult everything was for the family of the offender. I know not everyone has a supportive contact with any of the professionals but just wanted to put that it can happen. Wishing you and your daughter all the best.
Thanks Cloud. Did the police risk assessor contact you without you having to ask them? My daughter has tried to contact the officer in charge of the case and has been completely stonewalled, but there has never been any mention of a police risk assessor. I can understand that the oic can't discuss details of the case, but if there is supposed to be some sort of risk assessment done by them, they appear not to have done one and left everything to social services.
She contacted me directly - my ex gave her my number and let me know she'd call. Happened just before sentencing was supposed to take place but it's been postponed repeatedly.