Stagnant
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Hey guys,
I rarely post because I don't ever have any news other than we still reside in the dreaded limbo land. We b0llocked the solicitors last week so they've finally sent stuff ready to submit a defence statement. I've been trawling through the evidence almost all day and looking at things from different perspectives and I think I've got everything covered. We're still in 2 minds to go and pay a very ambitious solicitor £500 to get him to go over the evidence and get his opinion because even in the email the solicitor sent they still don't bloody listen to everything you've explained time and time again. They're pretty certain it will go to trial so we'll see what happens. There's a provisional court date in December but the likelihood of that is about the same as me going and winning the lottery. I feel like I get on with life and still enjoy it but this always niggles at me, it's like an annoying fly that won't get out of your house! As the subject suggests, I feel stagnant! Bless us all on this absolute rollercoaster of rubbish, we deserve a lot better x
I rarely post because I don't ever have any news other than we still reside in the dreaded limbo land. We b0llocked the solicitors last week so they've finally sent stuff ready to submit a defence statement. I've been trawling through the evidence almost all day and looking at things from different perspectives and I think I've got everything covered. We're still in 2 minds to go and pay a very ambitious solicitor £500 to get him to go over the evidence and get his opinion because even in the email the solicitor sent they still don't bloody listen to everything you've explained time and time again. They're pretty certain it will go to trial so we'll see what happens. There's a provisional court date in December but the likelihood of that is about the same as me going and winning the lottery. I feel like I get on with life and still enjoy it but this always niggles at me, it's like an annoying fly that won't get out of your house! As the subject suggests, I feel stagnant! Bless us all on this absolute rollercoaster of rubbish, we deserve a lot better x
My logical brain would say that if you are going to go to trial you need to be armed with as much evidence and angles as possible. It didn't compute in my head when my person was going to trial that he hadn't gone with a specialist solicitor - To me, if you are going into battle you need to do it with the best armour and equipment as you possibly can. The cost put my person off and he's lost well over that already if you take into consideration the loss of earnings, storage for his possession, selling his home etc. Gosh how I wish my brain was engaged when he was making these decisions.
Having said that, it was my persons barrister that was key in looking at the evidence and talking to the CPS not the solicitor - I believe the solicitor is more as a point of contact, coordination and explanation.
It can't have been a easy day to go through the evidence. I hope you manage to switch off and get some sleep.
Having said that, it was my persons barrister that was key in looking at the evidence and talking to the CPS not the solicitor - I believe the solicitor is more as a point of contact, coordination and explanation.
It can't have been a easy day to go through the evidence. I hope you manage to switch off and get some sleep.
Thanks for your reply Sal. I hope you and your person are doing ok. I absolutely agree, I think hindsight is a wonderful thing and you just assume all solicitors and barristers will do the best but as we know that's not the case. I feel like the barrister doesn't believe my partner is innocent and I get that from some of the things she put in the email - it was the barrister who emailed sorry, not the solicitor. I know they need to be impartial and realistic but it's worrying when they don't seem to have much faith or be offering positives. The solicitor I've spoken to I know has a really good reputation and hopefully would put us on to a good barrister. I think it's something we will look at over the next couple of days. I'm going to email back my concerns and clarification of what the evidence actually shows (which is nothing big) and see what happens.
It is tiring, it takes a lot out of you to deal with this, I struggled to get to sleep and jolted awake at 6am. Today is a new day though and I have some fresh energy to continue the battle :) x
It is tiring, it takes a lot out of you to deal with this, I struggled to get to sleep and jolted awake at 6am. Today is a new day though and I have some fresh energy to continue the battle :) x
Being on the other side of sentencing and livng with the reprecussion of it, if you can afford it I'd suggest doing it, if only to put your mind at ease. £500 while a lot of money will seem relatively small in the long run - I've probably racked that up in costs for emails, phone calls and travel to the prison.
It's a difficult balance barristers need to find, I felt very frustrated that my person's one wouldn't advise him which way to plead. Just said that getting a not guilty outcome is very hard in these cases, because of preconceived ideas and opinions, even with strong evidence. He said he definitely had some evidence and a case that supported my person's claim, but that it wasn't strong. I've recently found out that when the barrister came to see him after sentencing he said (apparently - I don't know really what to believe) that he didn't think he was guilty and he'd been a complete idiot.
I don't know how I feel about him having plead guilty, my feelings change regularly, but if your person is not guilty and there is no ambiguity (there was lots in my person's case) then I think you should fight it and throw everything you've got at it. I hope you come to a decision soon and you feel comfortable with it, even making these decisions take their toll on us.
It's a difficult balance barristers need to find, I felt very frustrated that my person's one wouldn't advise him which way to plead. Just said that getting a not guilty outcome is very hard in these cases, because of preconceived ideas and opinions, even with strong evidence. He said he definitely had some evidence and a case that supported my person's claim, but that it wasn't strong. I've recently found out that when the barrister came to see him after sentencing he said (apparently - I don't know really what to believe) that he didn't think he was guilty and he'd been a complete idiot.
I don't know how I feel about him having plead guilty, my feelings change regularly, but if your person is not guilty and there is no ambiguity (there was lots in my person's case) then I think you should fight it and throw everything you've got at it. I hope you come to a decision soon and you feel comfortable with it, even making these decisions take their toll on us.
I really haven't thought about that, I think we both thought there was a chance it would get dropped - we did request them to ask the CPS to drop it but they didn't and once you've entered a plea you cannot request discontinuance which was very disappointing to learn but now I guess we need to consider the possibility and perhaps consider the "investment".
That seems ridiculous, I understand they can't really tell you but they could certainly give a well balanced view of both sides to help aid the decision. I find with these crimes, as I've said before, there are instances when people didn't understand what they were doing was a crime nor did they mean what they said but the criminal justice system doesn't seem to take that into account. That's awful that the barrister seemingly didn't believe he was innocent, I do think because of the nature of this crime a lot of solicitors and barristers (we've seen it in the Police) definitely have personal prejudice and morals which get in the way of defending people.
it is a tricky one as the wording of the law states "no reasonable doubt" and a lot of laws around these kinds of crimes state the requirement of sexual gratification for it to be a crime so it needs to be clear with the obvious luck of getting a fair jury too. I think the repurcussions of the crime are so big that it's worth fighting it, in my case it's a very small thing which looks as though multiple things belong to my partner - I'll explain it all in detail when the nightmare is over so we defo plan to fight it, I just hope it goes the right way. It's a shame that there is such little understanding of this and realistically there isn't that many cases to compare to considering some of these laws are fairly recent and a lot of people plead guilty because of the stigma and poor advice. Hopefully things change! X
That seems ridiculous, I understand they can't really tell you but they could certainly give a well balanced view of both sides to help aid the decision. I find with these crimes, as I've said before, there are instances when people didn't understand what they were doing was a crime nor did they mean what they said but the criminal justice system doesn't seem to take that into account. That's awful that the barrister seemingly didn't believe he was innocent, I do think because of the nature of this crime a lot of solicitors and barristers (we've seen it in the Police) definitely have personal prejudice and morals which get in the way of defending people.
it is a tricky one as the wording of the law states "no reasonable doubt" and a lot of laws around these kinds of crimes state the requirement of sexual gratification for it to be a crime so it needs to be clear with the obvious luck of getting a fair jury too. I think the repurcussions of the crime are so big that it's worth fighting it, in my case it's a very small thing which looks as though multiple things belong to my partner - I'll explain it all in detail when the nightmare is over so we defo plan to fight it, I just hope it goes the right way. It's a shame that there is such little understanding of this and realistically there isn't that many cases to compare to considering some of these laws are fairly recent and a lot of people plead guilty because of the stigma and poor advice. Hopefully things change! X
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Thanks PollyPocket! It's very bizarre and long winded, luckily there's only about 100 pages of evidence so it's not too time consuming to go through and everytime I read it, different things pop out so it's worthwhile reading it over and over. I'm sorry you're feeling the same, it's odd how sometimes it gets on top of you and other times you almost manage to forget about it and be positive. I hope you get some answers soon and hopefully lots of stuff you can challenge. Thank you so much! Sending love xxxxxx
Daffodil,
That's very true! It seems unfair but that's life and really there isn't a price on freedom is there xx
That's very true! It seems unfair but that's life and really there isn't a price on freedom is there xx
My person's barrister thought he WASN'T guilty. Or at least believed my person's story. I'm 90% sure I do too. I can't imagine how he must feel having plead guilty. He only did so because he didn't think he'd get a not guilty outcome and the sentence would have been more severe. I think it's fundamentally changed him pleading guilty and not having his chance to give his side of the story. It was at the point of guilty plea that he decided he'd cut all ties - He said he wouldn't be able to look anyone he knew in the eye again once he'd plead guilty, he didn't feel that way when he was going to trial or when talking about some much lower charges (he recognises he's been irresponsible and needed to be accountable to something). He literally walked into the Court Room for sentencing with only me and one other person knowing, to everyone else he's just disappeared. There are nuances in his case and I don't think his case is one that should have ever entirely been dropped by the CPS, he needed to be accountable to something . His barrister seemed to come close to getting them to change the charge to 2 much lower charged, that would have brought him into the suspended category. But at the last minute decided to bring a different charge that was only marginally less severe.
Strangely I'd discussed a legal case with my person (when I didn't know this was hanging over him) about someone that had written online to another adult about murdering his wife, he wrote lots of fantasy stuff online. It was on a programme where they debated whether he should have been charged and sentenced for it when no physical crime had been commited and there was very little to distigush between this scenario and other things he'd written online. The guy now writes crime novels and is paid for effectively the same thing he was sentenced for, but because he labels it as fantasy its legal. Even though its an illegal activity he's writing about. The same I don't think would apply for writing about child abuse, it would be an obscene publication. But it throws up an interesting discussion. My partner couldn't believe that someone could be sentenced for writing things online and not actually physically committing an act - How he held it together when he knew what was hanging over him and hadn't told me, I don't know. He's so naive.
If you are past the point of getting the charges dropped, it seems that you are best ploughing your energies (and perhaps finances) into preparing for trial. I'd assume only new evidence would change whether or not the charge could be dropped? Is there any chance of that? Anything new you can bring to the table?
Strangely I'd discussed a legal case with my person (when I didn't know this was hanging over him) about someone that had written online to another adult about murdering his wife, he wrote lots of fantasy stuff online. It was on a programme where they debated whether he should have been charged and sentenced for it when no physical crime had been commited and there was very little to distigush between this scenario and other things he'd written online. The guy now writes crime novels and is paid for effectively the same thing he was sentenced for, but because he labels it as fantasy its legal. Even though its an illegal activity he's writing about. The same I don't think would apply for writing about child abuse, it would be an obscene publication. But it throws up an interesting discussion. My partner couldn't believe that someone could be sentenced for writing things online and not actually physically committing an act - How he held it together when he knew what was hanging over him and hadn't told me, I don't know. He's so naive.
If you are past the point of getting the charges dropped, it seems that you are best ploughing your energies (and perhaps finances) into preparing for trial. I'd assume only new evidence would change whether or not the charge could be dropped? Is there any chance of that? Anything new you can bring to the table?
My person's barrister thought he WASN'T guilty. Or at least believed my person's story. I'm 90% sure I do too. I can't imagine how he must feel having plead guilty. He only did so because he didn't think he'd get a not guilty outcome and the sentence would have been more severe. I think it's fundamentally changed him pleading guilty and not having his chance to give his side of the story. It was at the point of guilty plea that he decided he'd cut all ties - He said he wouldn't be able to look anyone he knew in the eye again once he'd plead guilty, he didn't feel that way when he was going to trial or when talking about some much lower charges (he recognises he's been irresponsible and needed to be accountable to something). He literally walked into the Court Room for sentencing with only me and one other person knowing, to everyone else he's just disappeared. There are nuances in his case and I don't think his case is one that should have ever entirely been dropped by the CPS, he needed to be accountable to something . His barrister seemed to come close to getting them to change the charge to 2 much lower charged, that would have brought him into the suspended category. But at the last minute decided to bring a different charge that was only marginally less severe.
Strangely I'd discussed a legal case with my person (when I didn't know this was hanging over him) about someone that had written online to another adult about murdering his wife, he wrote lots of fantasy stuff online. It was on a programme where they debated whether he should have been charged and sentenced for it when no physical crime had been commited and there was very little to distigush between this scenario and other things he'd written online. The guy now writes crime novels and is paid for effectively the same thing he was sentenced for, but because he labels it as fantasy its legal. Even though its an illegal activity he's writing about. The same I don't think would apply for writing about child abuse, it would be an obscene publication. But it throws up an interesting discussion. My partner couldn't believe that someone could be sentenced for writing things online and not actually physically committing an act - How he held it together when he knew what was hanging over him and hadn't told me, I don't know. He's so naive.
If you are past the point of getting the charges dropped, it seems that you are best ploughing your energies (and perhaps finances) into preparing for trial. I'd assume only new evidence would change whether or not the charge could be dropped? Is there any chance of that? Anything new you can bring to the table?
Strangely I'd discussed a legal case with my person (when I didn't know this was hanging over him) about someone that had written online to another adult about murdering his wife, he wrote lots of fantasy stuff online. It was on a programme where they debated whether he should have been charged and sentenced for it when no physical crime had been commited and there was very little to distigush between this scenario and other things he'd written online. The guy now writes crime novels and is paid for effectively the same thing he was sentenced for, but because he labels it as fantasy its legal. Even though its an illegal activity he's writing about. The same I don't think would apply for writing about child abuse, it would be an obscene publication. But it throws up an interesting discussion. My partner couldn't believe that someone could be sentenced for writing things online and not actually physically committing an act - How he held it together when he knew what was hanging over him and hadn't told me, I don't know. He's so naive.
If you are past the point of getting the charges dropped, it seems that you are best ploughing your energies (and perhaps finances) into preparing for trial. I'd assume only new evidence would change whether or not the charge could be dropped? Is there any chance of that? Anything new you can bring to the table?
Oh I see! Absolutely, I think it's a massive thing to plead guilty to something when you don't believe you are. It's awful that there is a reduction for pleading guilty - does this not affect the human right of having a fair trial? Because lots of people will choose not to risk getting more time. They shouldn't be allowed to change the charges, they should know from the off what it is!
It is a very interesting concept because we all write things online we don't mean, I guess they see things involving children as being used for gratification and that's where it changes and it's funny you mention that because yesterday I saw a woman getting her house raided by police in America and arresting her 15 year old son because he'd said in an online game he'd shoot up a school which yes those threats in America are taken seriously and they should investigated but at the same time how can he be prosecuted for something when there is no actual plan and he likely said it out of anger or as a "joke", I'm not sure how the law can distinguish between fact and fiction but it seems a shame for those caught in the middle of it. You would think discussing in detail murdering someone would be a huge red flag. My partner (and I to be honest) was very naive before being a long way into this journey, I wasn't aware of many things that now I am.
I personally don't think they will drop it, I think they will let a jury decide if it was him or not. We have put to the barrister that I don't recognise the grammar etc as belonging to my partner so I'm hoping they will put me on the stand if necessary. There is literally nothing other than one thing tieing him to the case which has been explained, I can't see how they are going to convince a jury that it's him beyond reasonable doubt and that's me looking at it in a panic stricken state where I've thought the worst. You never know but we've had the worst of the evidence so we'll see what comes with the next disclosure once the defence statement has been submitted. The prosecution did say at the last hearing they are going to have problems attributing it to him and the judge was really p'd off with them.
It is a very interesting concept because we all write things online we don't mean, I guess they see things involving children as being used for gratification and that's where it changes and it's funny you mention that because yesterday I saw a woman getting her house raided by police in America and arresting her 15 year old son because he'd said in an online game he'd shoot up a school which yes those threats in America are taken seriously and they should investigated but at the same time how can he be prosecuted for something when there is no actual plan and he likely said it out of anger or as a "joke", I'm not sure how the law can distinguish between fact and fiction but it seems a shame for those caught in the middle of it. You would think discussing in detail murdering someone would be a huge red flag. My partner (and I to be honest) was very naive before being a long way into this journey, I wasn't aware of many things that now I am.
I personally don't think they will drop it, I think they will let a jury decide if it was him or not. We have put to the barrister that I don't recognise the grammar etc as belonging to my partner so I'm hoping they will put me on the stand if necessary. There is literally nothing other than one thing tieing him to the case which has been explained, I can't see how they are going to convince a jury that it's him beyond reasonable doubt and that's me looking at it in a panic stricken state where I've thought the worst. You never know but we've had the worst of the evidence so we'll see what comes with the next disclosure once the defence statement has been submitted. The prosecution did say at the last hearing they are going to have problems attributing it to him and the judge was really p'd off with them.
Baffled
I agree with you absolutely that if a person believes they are innocent they should not plead guilty. Once on record that is something you can never walk back from. Yet that have been people on this forum whose person has been advised or in some cases coerced into pleading guilty when they don't believe they are, or being advised to admit to a sexual interest in children that they do not have. This to me is totally wrong. To me this is not justice.
My partner does not believe he is guilty and will be pleading not guilty. Unfortunately, juries being drawn from the public may not have an understanding of how the Internet, computers and mobile phone apps work and so may find guilty beyond reasonable doubt, even if they are in fact making a decision based on their own limited understanding and personal biases. We are hoping the barrister puts up a good argument, and a defence that is as easy as possible to understand on the day, and that the jury are fair minded.
I agree with you absolutely that if a person believes they are innocent they should not plead guilty. Once on record that is something you can never walk back from. Yet that have been people on this forum whose person has been advised or in some cases coerced into pleading guilty when they don't believe they are, or being advised to admit to a sexual interest in children that they do not have. This to me is totally wrong. To me this is not justice.
My partner does not believe he is guilty and will be pleading not guilty. Unfortunately, juries being drawn from the public may not have an understanding of how the Internet, computers and mobile phone apps work and so may find guilty beyond reasonable doubt, even if they are in fact making a decision based on their own limited understanding and personal biases. We are hoping the barrister puts up a good argument, and a defence that is as easy as possible to understand on the day, and that the jury are fair minded.
Absolutely, it's shocking how much they push to admit a sexual interest in children as well. The barrister highlighted the video which my partner hasn't been charged with (it's meant to be humorous, contains a young boy, nude from the top up and was on multiple meme pages on Instagram not too long ago) that he was sent unsolicited in a Whatsapp group with friends, she said the prosecution will try and paint that as having a sexual interest in children. I almost lost my head because it's absolutely ridiculous to even suggest the prosecution COULD use that as a suggestion. If this is how the courts go on they may as well lock us all up because it's getting silly. I'm glad you're fighting it too, obviously it really depends on evidence etc but if you're not guilty then fight for it! Xx