Family court/ legal proceedings help
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Hi all, want to try and keep it short but need advice please :(.
We are nearly a year into SS involvement and if anyone has seen previous posts of mine they're dead set on OH never returning home.
We are due a CP conference soon (looking at stepping down to CIN) and was wondering has anyone pushed for partner to come home and SS took legal advice?.
what happens next? will it go to family court, where do we stand? does anyone have any advice or guidance?.
*OH background offence: IIOC (small amount) & distribution.
10 years register and SHPO online and no contact with under 16 unless parents or social services aware or signed off etc.
Offence/ sentencing took place before baby was conceived.
We are nearly a year into SS involvement and if anyone has seen previous posts of mine they're dead set on OH never returning home.
We are due a CP conference soon (looking at stepping down to CIN) and was wondering has anyone pushed for partner to come home and SS took legal advice?.
what happens next? will it go to family court, where do we stand? does anyone have any advice or guidance?.
*OH background offence: IIOC (small amount) & distribution.
10 years register and SHPO online and no contact with under 16 unless parents or social services aware or signed off etc.
Offence/ sentencing took place before baby was conceived.
Hi Cocoa2009, I'm sorry you're going through this. I am at a different part on this journey (husband still under investigation), but another poster said she was taken to PLO by social services, which is serious. The judge said that they should have an independent risk assessment done (the risk assessment of social services came back as high risk). They then had the independent risk assessment done and it came back as low risk. After that, her husband was able to move back home.
Thank you for your reply hpl111,
Sorry i didn't respond to your last reply on previous post, i kept meaning too. I hope you're are ok? it really is a horrible thing to go through but using this forum has really helped us as a family have some kind of hope for the future.
Sorry i didn't respond to your last reply on previous post, i kept meaning too. I hope you're are ok? it really is a horrible thing to go through but using this forum has really helped us as a family have some kind of hope for the future.
Just trying to bump this up to see if anyone else has any advice for me?
Trying to stay as a family but feel as though we have no chance at some what of a normal setting!
No real update as still in the same boat,
OH due to finish suspended sentence soon/ ihorizon.
Been told by sw if i was to do any courses to better my knowledge on offending (already done a quite a few and been in contact with LFF) it'll be for myself not for their benefit.
Also they're still adamant they want to close case with saftey plan in place that Oh will never be allowed in the family home 'safe place'.
please any advice would be greatfull, CPC coming up very soon now.
Trying to stay as a family but feel as though we have no chance at some what of a normal setting!
No real update as still in the same boat,
OH due to finish suspended sentence soon/ ihorizon.
Been told by sw if i was to do any courses to better my knowledge on offending (already done a quite a few and been in contact with LFF) it'll be for myself not for their benefit.
Also they're still adamant they want to close case with saftey plan in place that Oh will never be allowed in the family home 'safe place'.
please any advice would be greatfull, CPC coming up very soon now.
Hi,
What have they said their concerns are about your OH returning home? SS are supposed to work with families towards the best outcome for the children. They're also supposed to look at the family as a whole not just at the reason for their involvement. What does the safety plan look like that they are wanting to sign off? Are you able to supervise and are there restrictions around where contact can happen? Also, have probation or visor voiced any concerns in the meetings or to ss? xxx
What have they said their concerns are about your OH returning home? SS are supposed to work with families towards the best outcome for the children. They're also supposed to look at the family as a whole not just at the reason for their involvement. What does the safety plan look like that they are wanting to sign off? Are you able to supervise and are there restrictions around where contact can happen? Also, have probation or visor voiced any concerns in the meetings or to ss? xxx
So i'll try and do short points.
-convicted nearly 2 years ago, convicted after we met,
- Daughter conceived and born after sentencing.
2 years suspended,
10 years shopo and sor,
-'not to knowingly be unsupervised with under 16 unless parent or gardian are aware or ss sign off' -and internet usage no deleting data.
-SW worried he may take pics and distribute and sexually harm her.
Saftey plan, is for him to not enter the house ever, no personally care etc, child has to be fully clothed, no unsupervised.
Visor hardly see and Probation doesnt take side.
i can support contact in the comunity and car, and family supervises can support contact anywhere and everywhere bar her home (safe place)
Just feel at a loss! don't know what to do, you seek legal advice and all you get is, do as they tell you or your child will be taken of you, but if you breach the saftey plan and it goes to court proceedings do get in touch we can help with free legal aid!
SW has confirmed they trust me that i am putting daughter first, (as i have always before she was even born)
I see the side of SS and their concerns 100%, i have never minimised his offence or condoned it but it's so frustrating when we want to move forward but aren't allowed.
-convicted nearly 2 years ago, convicted after we met,
- Daughter conceived and born after sentencing.
2 years suspended,
10 years shopo and sor,
-'not to knowingly be unsupervised with under 16 unless parent or gardian are aware or ss sign off' -and internet usage no deleting data.
-SW worried he may take pics and distribute and sexually harm her.
Saftey plan, is for him to not enter the house ever, no personally care etc, child has to be fully clothed, no unsupervised.
Visor hardly see and Probation doesnt take side.
i can support contact in the comunity and car, and family supervises can support contact anywhere and everywhere bar her home (safe place)
Just feel at a loss! don't know what to do, you seek legal advice and all you get is, do as they tell you or your child will be taken of you, but if you breach the saftey plan and it goes to court proceedings do get in touch we can help with free legal aid!
SW has confirmed they trust me that i am putting daughter first, (as i have always before she was even born)
I see the side of SS and their concerns 100%, i have never minimised his offence or condoned it but it's so frustrating when we want to move forward but aren't allowed.
Ok, so my thoughts are that surely they should be ensuring that your child is safe everywhere. In my mind it's ridiculous for them to label her home as her "safe place". If you want to supervise anywhere including your home then this would be the first thing to challenge their thinking on.
I think including in your safety plan that you do all personal care either in another room or even that he is not allowed to have any camera devices in the room whilst you change is sufficient.
Have they done any assessments on your OH? Can you fund your own independent assessment but ask them what exactly they would like to be assessed before paying out any money. They usually won't fund them until you get to court stage but it's worth asking. What level have probation assessed him as? I am only at the stage of being able to supervise anywhere I choose as for the moment that is what suits me and my family. Who attends the child protection conferences? Have you voiced that it is your wish to work towards him coming home or did they say it initially and have stuck by it? xxx
I think including in your safety plan that you do all personal care either in another room or even that he is not allowed to have any camera devices in the room whilst you change is sufficient.
Have they done any assessments on your OH? Can you fund your own independent assessment but ask them what exactly they would like to be assessed before paying out any money. They usually won't fund them until you get to court stage but it's worth asking. What level have probation assessed him as? I am only at the stage of being able to supervise anywhere I choose as for the moment that is what suits me and my family. Who attends the child protection conferences? Have you voiced that it is your wish to work towards him coming home or did they say it initially and have stuck by it? xxx
So the levels for SS involvement are preventions (family support worker or community based support, not social worker, voluntary), child in need (SW, voluntary), child protection (SW, not voluntary), Public law outline (first step of legal proceedings, not voluntary), then court (usually initial care order, care order or supervision order, not voluntary)
It sounds like you're at the CP stage, and at this stage the SW should be completing all assessments holistically about your family to see what support you need to get towards the outcome you and your family want, so long as that's safe.
Things I'd be asking
1) has a separate assessment been done on child's father by someone qualified to assess the risk. Ideally a risk assessment and a parenting assessment
2) What type of risk do they think he poses and why? What evidence and research are they using to base this on?
3) Do they think this risk is higher in the home than elsewhere, is this why they don't want dad there? Why and on what evidence based research?
4) what do they mean by safe space. Emotional or physical? (In my head i'm thinking: Are they saying your child *feels* unsafe with her father so needs space from him for emotional reasons, or are they saying they think he's likely to commit a contact offense in the home but nowhere else, or are they saying he could commit a contact offense anywhere so your child can never relax when he's there so needs a break from being hypervigilant when at home? I know some of these suggestions may sound a bit ridiculous esp considering your child's age, but if you work backwards from the rules they've put in place this is where it leads)
I would note that if the case closes you are not legally obliged to follow any safety plan unless a court has ordered it, but if you do not follow it and something happens/another professional has concerns e.g. nursery, school, probation etc the case would be reopened and likely go to a strategy discussion and possibly a CP plan again
I would also note if it went to plo or court your legal team should insist on specialist assessments being done if they have not already
It sounds like you're at the CP stage, and at this stage the SW should be completing all assessments holistically about your family to see what support you need to get towards the outcome you and your family want, so long as that's safe.
Things I'd be asking
1) has a separate assessment been done on child's father by someone qualified to assess the risk. Ideally a risk assessment and a parenting assessment
2) What type of risk do they think he poses and why? What evidence and research are they using to base this on?
3) Do they think this risk is higher in the home than elsewhere, is this why they don't want dad there? Why and on what evidence based research?
4) what do they mean by safe space. Emotional or physical? (In my head i'm thinking: Are they saying your child *feels* unsafe with her father so needs space from him for emotional reasons, or are they saying they think he's likely to commit a contact offense in the home but nowhere else, or are they saying he could commit a contact offense anywhere so your child can never relax when he's there so needs a break from being hypervigilant when at home? I know some of these suggestions may sound a bit ridiculous esp considering your child's age, but if you work backwards from the rules they've put in place this is where it leads)
I would note that if the case closes you are not legally obliged to follow any safety plan unless a court has ordered it, but if you do not follow it and something happens/another professional has concerns e.g. nursery, school, probation etc the case would be reopened and likely go to a strategy discussion and possibly a CP plan again
I would also note if it went to plo or court your legal team should insist on specialist assessments being done if they have not already
Hi Lee,
A child protection plan is not voluntary; the only way to come off it is via CP conference and professionals voting to step down, a child turning 18, or I guess moving abroad (or death). A parent cannot decline a CP conference or plan and cannot decline a strategy meeting that can lead to a child protection conference.
However: Points on the plan is a grey area. If you refuse to abide by the plan it's good reason for a SW to request to step up to PLO but legal advice might be that the thing the parent has refused to do doesn't meet legal threshold.
For example a CP plan might include ensuring a perpetrator of abuse doesn't have unsupervised access to a child (significant harm threshold) AND registering a child with a dentist (CIN threshold or below). A parent might refuse to register their child with a dentist, going against the plan, but that on its own would never meet legal threshold of significant harm.
In this poster's case the SW seems to be saying let's reduce the risk of harm by not allowing the dad inside the child's home. I'd argue the significant harm threshold isn't met here if the access is supervised and the supervisor can demonstrate their protectiveness. So I'd say there's a good chance of a legal team saying the threshold isn't met for escalation. But lack of knowledge of this area of harm + stigma and bias could mean OTT risk assessment so I'd be arguing for a specialist to come on board as the council legal team aren't experts.
You'll find cases of it going both ways. I've seen parents refuse to abide by any points on a CP plan and the case being closed because it didn't meet legal threshold and it wasn't getting anywhere, and I've seen similar situations where legal have said yes escalate to PLO.
The threshold for legal and CP is actually the same 'significant harm' but in practice legal teams will often have a higher threshold e.g. evidence of harm being sustained for a longer time period, repeated risk of harms etc
A child protection plan is not voluntary; the only way to come off it is via CP conference and professionals voting to step down, a child turning 18, or I guess moving abroad (or death). A parent cannot decline a CP conference or plan and cannot decline a strategy meeting that can lead to a child protection conference.
However: Points on the plan is a grey area. If you refuse to abide by the plan it's good reason for a SW to request to step up to PLO but legal advice might be that the thing the parent has refused to do doesn't meet legal threshold.
For example a CP plan might include ensuring a perpetrator of abuse doesn't have unsupervised access to a child (significant harm threshold) AND registering a child with a dentist (CIN threshold or below). A parent might refuse to register their child with a dentist, going against the plan, but that on its own would never meet legal threshold of significant harm.
In this poster's case the SW seems to be saying let's reduce the risk of harm by not allowing the dad inside the child's home. I'd argue the significant harm threshold isn't met here if the access is supervised and the supervisor can demonstrate their protectiveness. So I'd say there's a good chance of a legal team saying the threshold isn't met for escalation. But lack of knowledge of this area of harm + stigma and bias could mean OTT risk assessment so I'd be arguing for a specialist to come on board as the council legal team aren't experts.
You'll find cases of it going both ways. I've seen parents refuse to abide by any points on a CP plan and the case being closed because it didn't meet legal threshold and it wasn't getting anywhere, and I've seen similar situations where legal have said yes escalate to PLO.
The threshold for legal and CP is actually the same 'significant harm' but in practice legal teams will often have a higher threshold e.g. evidence of harm being sustained for a longer time period, repeated risk of harms etc
TL:DR - being on the plan itself isn't voluntary, but you can't be forced to do the things on it til there's a court order. However as the threshold for a CP plan and court is technically the same it's a high risk strategy to go against the CP plan
There explanation of her safe place- where she can live freely without restrictions.
assessments were don't under a year ago. these didn't identify high or low risk just that the crime was bad and the horizon program was a key piece of work for his offending but they've now completely gone again this assessment/ over ridden it.
we are young and when the offending took place we wasn't aware of LFF so no other courses were taken by OH (not my husband) just completing the horizon by probation but tbh i believe and you can clearly see from the Sw and their managers their opinion on the crime and him is even if they were involved now or when he's off the register they would still be involved and this would always be the outcome therefore never giving him a chance to rehabilitate and try again at life and prove he isn't this person.
Charges of crime are at the top of this post.
20 images and 5 distributed
they don't even want to move to CIN just close the case with saftey plan in place.
we are completely at a loss we believe now, they're 100% set in their decisions and say the plan can never move forward 'eg, me take over contact anywhere' they remain worried i wouldn't be able to protect in the indoor environment or anywhere else' but i can do it in the community and family can do it anywhere (but her home).
i just don't know if the chair can have any input or will she just side with SS and the case closed and we'll.... what do we do then?
breach it, live the life they want us to with restrictions always in place?
he still needs to be risk assessed by the end of probation and horizon but they clearly don't want to wait for this outcome and it makes no difference to them.
assessments were don't under a year ago. these didn't identify high or low risk just that the crime was bad and the horizon program was a key piece of work for his offending but they've now completely gone again this assessment/ over ridden it.
we are young and when the offending took place we wasn't aware of LFF so no other courses were taken by OH (not my husband) just completing the horizon by probation but tbh i believe and you can clearly see from the Sw and their managers their opinion on the crime and him is even if they were involved now or when he's off the register they would still be involved and this would always be the outcome therefore never giving him a chance to rehabilitate and try again at life and prove he isn't this person.
Charges of crime are at the top of this post.
20 images and 5 distributed
they don't even want to move to CIN just close the case with saftey plan in place.
we are completely at a loss we believe now, they're 100% set in their decisions and say the plan can never move forward 'eg, me take over contact anywhere' they remain worried i wouldn't be able to protect in the indoor environment or anywhere else' but i can do it in the community and family can do it anywhere (but her home).
i just don't know if the chair can have any input or will she just side with SS and the case closed and we'll.... what do we do then?
breach it, live the life they want us to with restrictions always in place?
he still needs to be risk assessed by the end of probation and horizon but they clearly don't want to wait for this outcome and it makes no difference to them.
From reading other posts on here i believe our only option now is to try not to breach the saftey plan but refuse to close the case and hopefully they escalate it to court and we can then have a finally written case buy a judge.
Regards to risk assessment and PO,
when he was sentenced he was classed as medium risk as was told the offence would never be low risk, as soon as we were pregnant and found out it was a girl and SS got involved they move him to high risk and a new PO was put in place.
Regards to risk assessment and PO,
when he was sentenced he was classed as medium risk as was told the offence would never be low risk, as soon as we were pregnant and found out it was a girl and SS got involved they move him to high risk and a new PO was put in place.
Hi, I'm sorry you are going through this.
We were escalated to PLO (didn't meet the threshold, our solicitors tore the LA apart and now there is an investigation as to why our ss withheld data- which made it look like we had met the threshold. They also lied about a breach) The sw did an assessment which came back high risk, said I needed to leave my oh (when I refused they used this ti take us to PLO). Luckily all our other professionals are amazing, his visor and probation started a professional disagreement and completely disagreed with the sw.
But when we were in PLO we had an independent assessment, this came back as low risk- no evidence of risk of harm. So my oh is now home and can be unsupervised once he has done horizon.
I would add any courses you do will be essential for this, I had done lots and had a good understanding so there were no recommendations for me.
-LFF partner inform (free)
-STOPSO partners course (£150)
- Breaking the cycle by circles (free if you self refer) - this one was amazing and included a protectiveness assessment of yourself as part of it.
-COFRA course (bloody expensive but fantastic)
-worked with SaferLives/talking forward and attend their support groups.
-reading, the protectors handbook.
-write a very clear and detailed safety plan.
If you are deemed protective there should be no reason you can't supervise, and if you can supervise in the community there should be a clear explanation of why you can't do it in the home.
it can be done, however because of his contact restriction ss may try to push back. But an independent assessment will set out clear recommendations that they have to follow.
PLO was scary but for us it was the best thing that actually happened (in hindsight)
I am not sure, but can you refuse for the case to be closed? Or speak to his visor etc? Ages ago when ss said they would close us with restrictions she refused and said the case ain't closed if there are restrictions.
We were escalated to PLO (didn't meet the threshold, our solicitors tore the LA apart and now there is an investigation as to why our ss withheld data- which made it look like we had met the threshold. They also lied about a breach) The sw did an assessment which came back high risk, said I needed to leave my oh (when I refused they used this ti take us to PLO). Luckily all our other professionals are amazing, his visor and probation started a professional disagreement and completely disagreed with the sw.
But when we were in PLO we had an independent assessment, this came back as low risk- no evidence of risk of harm. So my oh is now home and can be unsupervised once he has done horizon.
I would add any courses you do will be essential for this, I had done lots and had a good understanding so there were no recommendations for me.
-LFF partner inform (free)
-STOPSO partners course (£150)
- Breaking the cycle by circles (free if you self refer) - this one was amazing and included a protectiveness assessment of yourself as part of it.
-COFRA course (bloody expensive but fantastic)
-worked with SaferLives/talking forward and attend their support groups.
-reading, the protectors handbook.
-write a very clear and detailed safety plan.
If you are deemed protective there should be no reason you can't supervise, and if you can supervise in the community there should be a clear explanation of why you can't do it in the home.
it can be done, however because of his contact restriction ss may try to push back. But an independent assessment will set out clear recommendations that they have to follow.
PLO was scary but for us it was the best thing that actually happened (in hindsight)
I am not sure, but can you refuse for the case to be closed? Or speak to his visor etc? Ages ago when ss said they would close us with restrictions she refused and said the case ain't closed if there are restrictions.
In regards to his shopo at the time we didn't even know what to say or do, just went with the solicitor as wasn't made aware he could argu the shopo even though it was only internet based. i've seen somewhere you can go after 5 years maybe, but then we risk another media report and everyone knows our business.
We also didn't have any children or had planned any children at the time.
so we have the conference this week and we don't know how to argu our case on being a family without them saying i'm not protective or them just shutting us down.
In regards to courses i'm happy to further my knowledge and understanding of what i already feel i know with the hope they would move forward but they have made it clear no matter what courses are completed by myself and Other half there opinion stands that he is a danger and should always be supervised and never return home. They have even stated that after the SOR ect they would still treat him the same and not allow him unsupervised with any of his potention future children.
so this is why i feel we need to go to PLO, but how do we do it without breach/ having to pay.
i feel like our only option is family court and pray it goes our way.
We also didn't have any children or had planned any children at the time.
so we have the conference this week and we don't know how to argu our case on being a family without them saying i'm not protective or them just shutting us down.
In regards to courses i'm happy to further my knowledge and understanding of what i already feel i know with the hope they would move forward but they have made it clear no matter what courses are completed by myself and Other half there opinion stands that he is a danger and should always be supervised and never return home. They have even stated that after the SOR ect they would still treat him the same and not allow him unsupervised with any of his potention future children.
so this is why i feel we need to go to PLO, but how do we do it without breach/ having to pay.
i feel like our only option is family court and pray it goes our way.
Exactly as Lee has said, it won't make any difference for ss as they have made their minds up already on your situation and you won't change them.
But if you haven't done the work, an independent assessment will recommend that you do the work so you can move forward.
Your OH has done the horizon, he will have the write up of that course. His probation/visor will then be doing another risk assessment on him, most likely, either ARMS or OASYS.
has he accessed any therapy? Has he found out why he offended and have you both got long term safety measures in place to prevent offending again? - we were asked all of this in our independent assessment, and could prove through our work and safety plan that we had thought of everything.
I know before sentencing lff and safer lives do courses, but they are very similar work to the horizon. He could contact saferliving foundation for their programme, stop so for therapy, saa/slaa.
It is a really hard fight but it can be won, and unfortunately you have to take a lot on yourself. Which is so unfair as we did nothing wrong, but you have to prove that you can look after your child and aren't just blindly following your oh ( I know this sounds stupid, but that's how ss think of us)
before your next conference your oh needs to talk to his visor/probation and tell them the situation and what he wants from the future and do they support him. I'm not sure your relationship with them, but I contact my oh visor a lot and have these conversations myself.
it's so much easier to do the fight if you have backing from the professionals.
Then as the conference is minuted, explain exactly what you would like. Say you want an independent assessment as your and your child's feelings aren't being considered and you need to know what informed decisions to make with all the relevant evidence for the best of your family.
Say your family still requires support so ask for CIN rather than case closed.
But if you haven't done the work, an independent assessment will recommend that you do the work so you can move forward.
Your OH has done the horizon, he will have the write up of that course. His probation/visor will then be doing another risk assessment on him, most likely, either ARMS or OASYS.
has he accessed any therapy? Has he found out why he offended and have you both got long term safety measures in place to prevent offending again? - we were asked all of this in our independent assessment, and could prove through our work and safety plan that we had thought of everything.
I know before sentencing lff and safer lives do courses, but they are very similar work to the horizon. He could contact saferliving foundation for their programme, stop so for therapy, saa/slaa.
It is a really hard fight but it can be won, and unfortunately you have to take a lot on yourself. Which is so unfair as we did nothing wrong, but you have to prove that you can look after your child and aren't just blindly following your oh ( I know this sounds stupid, but that's how ss think of us)
before your next conference your oh needs to talk to his visor/probation and tell them the situation and what he wants from the future and do they support him. I'm not sure your relationship with them, but I contact my oh visor a lot and have these conversations myself.
it's so much easier to do the fight if you have backing from the professionals.
Then as the conference is minuted, explain exactly what you would like. Say you want an independent assessment as your and your child's feelings aren't being considered and you need to know what informed decisions to make with all the relevant evidence for the best of your family.
Say your family still requires support so ask for CIN rather than case closed.