Police decoy - woman with 9 y.o. daughter
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Hi everyone,
My dad was arrested for arranging or facilitating the commission of a child sex offence. 1.5 months from the knock now and just waiting for the return to the police station in around 1 month, but knowing that he will probably be rebailed at that point from reading lots of your posts. It has been so helpful to find this forum to know we're not alone and that all the things I'm feeling are normal reactions.
I've noticed quite a few people posting that their person was in a similar situation to my dad - chatting with a police decoy posing as a mother of a 9 yo daughter. Does anyone in this situation know more about how the conversation went in their case as I don't have much info from my dad. Did the decoy bring in talking about the child early on? Or after a while of chatting / gaining their trust. I know my dad chatted to the decoy for a few months. How long did your person's conversations go on for before their arrest?
Also, did anyone ever have the choice to read the transcripts of the conversations? Did you read them and how did you feel about everything after reading them? I can't decide whether I'd like to know everything or not.
I'm also wondering why this is the decoy scenario the police use. I can't imagine (maybe me being naive) that there are that many mothers offering their children for abuse in chat rooms given the stats on the gender of offenders being overwhelmingly male. So if it's not a common thing why would that be the police's choice of decoy scenario? Would love to hear anyone's thoughts on that.
thanks so much for reading.
My dad was arrested for arranging or facilitating the commission of a child sex offence. 1.5 months from the knock now and just waiting for the return to the police station in around 1 month, but knowing that he will probably be rebailed at that point from reading lots of your posts. It has been so helpful to find this forum to know we're not alone and that all the things I'm feeling are normal reactions.
I've noticed quite a few people posting that their person was in a similar situation to my dad - chatting with a police decoy posing as a mother of a 9 yo daughter. Does anyone in this situation know more about how the conversation went in their case as I don't have much info from my dad. Did the decoy bring in talking about the child early on? Or after a while of chatting / gaining their trust. I know my dad chatted to the decoy for a few months. How long did your person's conversations go on for before their arrest?
Also, did anyone ever have the choice to read the transcripts of the conversations? Did you read them and how did you feel about everything after reading them? I can't decide whether I'd like to know everything or not.
I'm also wondering why this is the decoy scenario the police use. I can't imagine (maybe me being naive) that there are that many mothers offering their children for abuse in chat rooms given the stats on the gender of offenders being overwhelmingly male. So if it's not a common thing why would that be the police's choice of decoy scenario? Would love to hear anyone's thoughts on that.
thanks so much for reading.
I'm sorry you find yourself here.
My partner had a conversation with a decoy about her daughter. I know the conversation started in some dodgy territory around group adult sex that involved mothers and daughters (his conversation started on a public forum and I can see what was written). I read some of the transcript, not all of it. The barrister did tell me it was escalated from the decoy and gave some examples, but that my partner did respond to it (he was initially pleading not guilty - He didn't think talking was illegal, but it isn't the way the law sees it). The conversation lasted about 6 weeks and at various intensity. There were no arrangements to meet.
Regarding you being able to read the transcript, you'd need your father to allow this. He will only get access to the evidence when charged.
I personally find these conversations with adults quite difficult to get my head round - He absolutely shouldn't have had it, his thoughts are concerning and he obviously didn't once stop to think there could actually be a child being harmed. But I can understand why he thought he wasn't doing anything illegal (he had many role play conversations) and that the kick was pleasing the woman (which of course is totally wrong, if she was getting a kick out of a child being abused). I also think the conversations escalate quickly with adult to adult conversations because there isn't the grooming which I imagine requires a more gentle approach.
I'm really sorry you find yourself here, particularly with your Dad.
My partner had a conversation with a decoy about her daughter. I know the conversation started in some dodgy territory around group adult sex that involved mothers and daughters (his conversation started on a public forum and I can see what was written). I read some of the transcript, not all of it. The barrister did tell me it was escalated from the decoy and gave some examples, but that my partner did respond to it (he was initially pleading not guilty - He didn't think talking was illegal, but it isn't the way the law sees it). The conversation lasted about 6 weeks and at various intensity. There were no arrangements to meet.
Regarding you being able to read the transcript, you'd need your father to allow this. He will only get access to the evidence when charged.
I personally find these conversations with adults quite difficult to get my head round - He absolutely shouldn't have had it, his thoughts are concerning and he obviously didn't once stop to think there could actually be a child being harmed. But I can understand why he thought he wasn't doing anything illegal (he had many role play conversations) and that the kick was pleasing the woman (which of course is totally wrong, if she was getting a kick out of a child being abused). I also think the conversations escalate quickly with adult to adult conversations because there isn't the grooming which I imagine requires a more gentle approach.
I'm really sorry you find yourself here, particularly with your Dad.
What I don't understand about role playing, is how does either side know that the other one is role playing and not being serious?
Do they have a discussion first and then one says to the other, "OK, I'm going to start role playing now"?
That seems very unlikely. If I were speaking to somebody, I would always assume that they were being serious, unless they told me otherwise.
Do they have a discussion first and then one says to the other, "OK, I'm going to start role playing now"?
That seems very unlikely. If I were speaking to somebody, I would always assume that they were being serious, unless they told me otherwise.
I completely agree, that is the only way this type of conversation would have any kind of defense - If it was explicitly discussed that it was role play.
In my partners case this didn't happened, but was on a forum where lots of people talk about different kinds of fantasies/role play some of which could be possible and some that are physically impossible. In amongst the many conversations my partner had, he had one about something that is physically / biologically impossible for him - l read the posts.
I know I've taken part in conversations with people online about sexual fantasises and very much sounded like I'd be happy to do them in reality, but in the cold light of day I absolutely know I wouldn't. But there is an element of needing to believe I would or they would for it to feel real and to get off on it. Fortunately these things I've played out in my head and engaged in conversations with others about would only have ever put me at risk, I found my behaviour worrying and not inline with my normal values and sort the help I needed.
In my partners case this didn't happened, but was on a forum where lots of people talk about different kinds of fantasies/role play some of which could be possible and some that are physically impossible. In amongst the many conversations my partner had, he had one about something that is physically / biologically impossible for him - l read the posts.
I know I've taken part in conversations with people online about sexual fantasises and very much sounded like I'd be happy to do them in reality, but in the cold light of day I absolutely know I wouldn't. But there is an element of needing to believe I would or they would for it to feel real and to get off on it. Fortunately these things I've played out in my head and engaged in conversations with others about would only have ever put me at risk, I found my behaviour worrying and not inline with my normal values and sort the help I needed.
How do you know it is a police decoy?
I haven't shared my story on here yet but we got the knock in January 23, and I am still none the wiser .... all I know is that there is some sort of email conversation, that is what the police have told me but for tactical reasons won't disclose the conversation. In 2 weeks he has to answer bail again. He hasn't been charged as of yet and still released under investigation. I'm guessing he will be rebailed as waiting on forensics from his phone and tablet.
I am starting to think this may be similar to what my husband has done. This is what I find so hard the not knowing but having to answer questions by social workers. Am I deluded in thinking there is no way he's done that and this is all a mistake?? Because reading your post about the forum conversation with a decoy triggered a thought.
I haven't shared my story on here yet but we got the knock in January 23, and I am still none the wiser .... all I know is that there is some sort of email conversation, that is what the police have told me but for tactical reasons won't disclose the conversation. In 2 weeks he has to answer bail again. He hasn't been charged as of yet and still released under investigation. I'm guessing he will be rebailed as waiting on forensics from his phone and tablet.
I am starting to think this may be similar to what my husband has done. This is what I find so hard the not knowing but having to answer questions by social workers. Am I deluded in thinking there is no way he's done that and this is all a mistake?? Because reading your post about the forum conversation with a decoy triggered a thought.
I did forget to ask, how and when do you find out what is happening?
I'm sorry you find yourself here.
Unfortunately I can't help with when we found out it was a decoy, my partner didn't tell me he was under investigation. He definitely knew when he was charged.
Obviously every situation is different but with my partner there was obviously a reason the decoy decided to approach him. Whilst I think here will be a element of casting the net wide to see what they catch, they will narrow their search down to places/people that are more likely to catch.
My partner said it very much felt like role play, non if it felt real. The decoy did speak to him on the phone and said something didn't feel right - Whether or not he thought it was the police or if he thought the parent might have real intention, I've never got to the bottom of and I don't think he really knows either, he just said it didn't feel right.
It took 15 months for him to recieve charges. He plead not guilty initially.
Unfortunately I can't help with when we found out it was a decoy, my partner didn't tell me he was under investigation. He definitely knew when he was charged.
Obviously every situation is different but with my partner there was obviously a reason the decoy decided to approach him. Whilst I think here will be a element of casting the net wide to see what they catch, they will narrow their search down to places/people that are more likely to catch.
My partner said it very much felt like role play, non if it felt real. The decoy did speak to him on the phone and said something didn't feel right - Whether or not he thought it was the police or if he thought the parent might have real intention, I've never got to the bottom of and I don't think he really knows either, he just said it didn't feel right.
It took 15 months for him to recieve charges. He plead not guilty initially.
My husband had no choice but to tell me seeing as I walked half way downstairs asleep to find 7 police officers coming through my front door. I'm not sure if his is the same. He said he has def not contacted a child directly but received some emails/ photos that sickened him and he deleted them. He said he physically threw up but thought it was junk mail.
he has told me he had been on "legal" free porn sites a few months before so the reason im now questioning the decoy part is I wonder if he went into some chat rooms as well.
He still hasn't been charged with anything. But constantly questioning, where, why, how! He can't live at home as we have a 5 year old, but the police granted him FaceTime access straight away which to me was really strange! But then won't tell me what who how nothing. Social worker won't either but I constantly get questioned on my plans for the future! In the last 6 months I've had to go from planning step by step, now I can see 10 steps ahead but not weeks or months. I just feel the police and social are so inhumane with it all.
he has told me he had been on "legal" free porn sites a few months before so the reason im now questioning the decoy part is I wonder if he went into some chat rooms as well.
He still hasn't been charged with anything. But constantly questioning, where, why, how! He can't live at home as we have a 5 year old, but the police granted him FaceTime access straight away which to me was really strange! But then won't tell me what who how nothing. Social worker won't either but I constantly get questioned on my plans for the future! In the last 6 months I've had to go from planning step by step, now I can see 10 steps ahead but not weeks or months. I just feel the police and social are so inhumane with it all.
I am a few years down the line.
I wasn't told much but there was a second arrest ( I only knew as I was being asked to review images..). This was a few months after the knock.
umless you have full disclosure you won't know anything until the court hearing. I heard it all at court.
My ex had said to me via email throughout the bail it was an adult conversation. I am not going to lie, it was really hard to hear the details in court.
I had the transcript of court (which was informative as I missed things as the experience was hard), I didn't see the actual communication but what I heard, was disturbing.
the age is really important, and there are sentencing guidelines which the court will refer to as there is a difference in grading based on age.
Decoy doesn't matter in the court of law. The guidelines are really helpful as it will help with preparation.
But they are coming down heavily on these offences.
You will see it many times here, Every judge is different, every decision is different. Expect the worst and anything less is good
my ex got 5 years and was lucky.
the actual communication was over 2 weeks. The dates were key and one of the charges (which I saw in error) was incredibly harrowing and important to me, as a mum.
I don't think it matters if the meet happened. My ex didn't meet but it was scheduled, and he has planned for it (from what they found in his car..). They swooped when they found out about his job and his family.
if you know this amount of detail from you person then push for full disclosure. It will help you in many ways
one day at a time, and I really wish you well
I wasn't told much but there was a second arrest ( I only knew as I was being asked to review images..). This was a few months after the knock.
umless you have full disclosure you won't know anything until the court hearing. I heard it all at court.
My ex had said to me via email throughout the bail it was an adult conversation. I am not going to lie, it was really hard to hear the details in court.
I had the transcript of court (which was informative as I missed things as the experience was hard), I didn't see the actual communication but what I heard, was disturbing.
the age is really important, and there are sentencing guidelines which the court will refer to as there is a difference in grading based on age.
Decoy doesn't matter in the court of law. The guidelines are really helpful as it will help with preparation.
But they are coming down heavily on these offences.
You will see it many times here, Every judge is different, every decision is different. Expect the worst and anything less is good
my ex got 5 years and was lucky.
the actual communication was over 2 weeks. The dates were key and one of the charges (which I saw in error) was incredibly harrowing and important to me, as a mum.
I don't think it matters if the meet happened. My ex didn't meet but it was scheduled, and he has planned for it (from what they found in his car..). They swooped when they found out about his job and his family.
if you know this amount of detail from you person then push for full disclosure. It will help you in many ways
one day at a time, and I really wish you well
As Nemesis says, disclosure is how you will be satisfied you know the full truth - Only he can grant that though.
I do not have children but from what I've seen recommended from others that are in a similar position, is that you should stand your ground on not making any decisions about your relationship until you have more information (if that's what you want) but in the meantime it's important to consider and acknowledge the risks. I hope others on here can offer more valuable advise. I have seen the charity Children Heard and Seen is worth contacting about support for your child.
Be prepared for more to come out than he has let on, it's not unusual for more to come to light than they've let on.
I do not have children but from what I've seen recommended from others that are in a similar position, is that you should stand your ground on not making any decisions about your relationship until you have more information (if that's what you want) but in the meantime it's important to consider and acknowledge the risks. I hope others on here can offer more valuable advise. I have seen the charity Children Heard and Seen is worth contacting about support for your child.
Be prepared for more to come out than he has let on, it's not unusual for more to come to light than they've let on.
I've copied the below charities that you might find helpful for you and your child.
- Circles (offer family support programmes/counselling)
- Children Seen and Heard
- Barnados
- Safer Lives
- Circles (offer family support programmes/counselling)
- Children Seen and Heard
- Barnados
- Safer Lives
Children heard and seen is when/if person is in prison
and yes others are great. Every case is different.
and yes others are great. Every case is different.
Thank you all for your replies.
SAL - thanks for sharing your story. I also think there must have been a reason for the decoy to start the chat in the first place. If you google the chatroom he was on, it's quite clear from the reviews that people say it's dodgy so that is a red flag to start with. I agree with everything you said on adult conversations too. My dad also says similar things about it just being a conversation, and him never imagining it would happen in real life. He says he didn't intend to ever meet the woman or her child, nor did he do anything to infer that he would. But it also worries me that he could have this sort of conversation in the first place. Fantasy is one thing, but when it involves kids as you said too, it always crosses a line for me.
Wolf-Pack - I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I know it was a decoy because my dad told me - the police told him during the interview after he was arrested. I get the impression from reading this forum that there isn't a lot of consistency in the information the police give. In your case, if it's an email conversation I'd imagine it either has to be a decoy, a vigilante, or the person having the conversation reported him. Otherwise how would the police know about it. Though I'm not an expert at all, so could be totally wrong.
Nemesis - it must have been really hard to hear the details in court. My dad says that if he pleads guilty that the transcripts / conversation won't be made public. Does anyone know if this is true? I has told me he is very ashamed of what he said and I assume he would prefer people not to know. I told my dad that if there are details that would hurt me, I'd rather find out from him rather than from the police, in court etc., and that if he isn't honest with me, it will affect whether I can support him in the future.
edel2020 - I agree with you that a jury would never believe it was role play unless that was specifically said. Though I fear that people use chatrooms / online spaces for role play because it's an easier place to suspend disbelief, pretend to be someone else etc. I also think because you're hiding behind a screen that people think they can say whatever they want without repercussions, which is why so many of us find ourselves on this forum.
My dad is adamant they won't find anything else on his devices, but given how easy it is to view / download an image without even meaning to, I do worry about images being found. Nothing we can do but wait for now.
SAL - thanks for sharing your story. I also think there must have been a reason for the decoy to start the chat in the first place. If you google the chatroom he was on, it's quite clear from the reviews that people say it's dodgy so that is a red flag to start with. I agree with everything you said on adult conversations too. My dad also says similar things about it just being a conversation, and him never imagining it would happen in real life. He says he didn't intend to ever meet the woman or her child, nor did he do anything to infer that he would. But it also worries me that he could have this sort of conversation in the first place. Fantasy is one thing, but when it involves kids as you said too, it always crosses a line for me.
Wolf-Pack - I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I know it was a decoy because my dad told me - the police told him during the interview after he was arrested. I get the impression from reading this forum that there isn't a lot of consistency in the information the police give. In your case, if it's an email conversation I'd imagine it either has to be a decoy, a vigilante, or the person having the conversation reported him. Otherwise how would the police know about it. Though I'm not an expert at all, so could be totally wrong.
Nemesis - it must have been really hard to hear the details in court. My dad says that if he pleads guilty that the transcripts / conversation won't be made public. Does anyone know if this is true? I has told me he is very ashamed of what he said and I assume he would prefer people not to know. I told my dad that if there are details that would hurt me, I'd rather find out from him rather than from the police, in court etc., and that if he isn't honest with me, it will affect whether I can support him in the future.
edel2020 - I agree with you that a jury would never believe it was role play unless that was specifically said. Though I fear that people use chatrooms / online spaces for role play because it's an easier place to suspend disbelief, pretend to be someone else etc. I also think because you're hiding behind a screen that people think they can say whatever they want without repercussions, which is why so many of us find ourselves on this forum.
My dad is adamant they won't find anything else on his devices, but given how easy it is to view / download an image without even meaning to, I do worry about images being found. Nothing we can do but wait for now.
If its any consolation /hope, my partner said that and there was nothing else. 1 conversation with an adult about a child, many many other chats /discussions where he was clearly playing out some other person /suspending disbelief.
The law around the fantasy defence is not very clear. I read two cases recently. One where it was allowed and one where it was refused.
In the first one, two people agreed to meet on "a Friday night" and the judges said this was not enough to prove an intent to meet, as they didn't say which Friday it was.
In the second case, two people agreed to meet, but gave more details about where and when they would meet, so the judges said this was enough to prove intention.
We have had cases on here where there was no discussion about meeting and the CPS still prosecuted. But other police forces try to get the person to make arrangements to meet and only arrest them once they have travelled to the location. That would suggest to me, that a person has to do a lot more than simply fantasising about doing something. They have to actually take steps to do it as well.
In the first one, two people agreed to meet on "a Friday night" and the judges said this was not enough to prove an intent to meet, as they didn't say which Friday it was.
In the second case, two people agreed to meet, but gave more details about where and when they would meet, so the judges said this was enough to prove intention.
We have had cases on here where there was no discussion about meeting and the CPS still prosecuted. But other police forces try to get the person to make arrangements to meet and only arrest them once they have travelled to the location. That would suggest to me, that a person has to do a lot more than simply fantasising about doing something. They have to actually take steps to do it as well.
That's interesting Edel.
When you say judges said was not enough to prove an intent when do judges have the power to do this?
It is true that I think police will hold out for clear arrangements to meet before arresting, unless there are children at risk. My person did loosely dicsuss meeting but didn't. I agree there is no smoke without fire and it would be impossible for CPS based on this conversation alone that he was just playing something out. In the context of all the conversations he was having it is more plausible l.
When you say judges said was not enough to prove an intent when do judges have the power to do this?
It is true that I think police will hold out for clear arrangements to meet before arresting, unless there are children at risk. My person did loosely dicsuss meeting but didn't. I agree there is no smoke without fire and it would be impossible for CPS based on this conversation alone that he was just playing something out. In the context of all the conversations he was having it is more plausible l.
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Sal
These were both court of appeal cases, where the judges review decisions made by other judges. In the first one, the appeal was allowed, while the second one was refused.
These were both court of appeal cases, where the judges review decisions made by other judges. In the first one, the appeal was allowed, while the second one was refused.
Edel2020 - where did you read the cases? I'd be interested to read some to see how the judges take their decision.
Blue Sky - I agree that asking 3 times and getting 3 Nos is too much. It's interesting to see that the number of convictions for this charge have gone up hugely since undercover police have been in chatrooms. I'm sure the police would say that it's because they're now catching people they wouldn't have caught otherwise. But there must be an element in some cases of the conversation being provoked by the police.
Blue Sky - I agree that asking 3 times and getting 3 Nos is too much. It's interesting to see that the number of convictions for this charge have gone up hugely since undercover police have been in chatrooms. I'm sure the police would say that it's because they're now catching people they wouldn't have caught otherwise. But there must be an element in some cases of the conversation being provoked by the police.
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InTatters
I have no personal experience of this but what you describe sounds like very creepy behaviour by the police and not very ethical. No doubt they would argue that the ends justify the means.
It would be interesting to know how many of these decoy attempts are successful in catching someine out, ie how many interactions with different individuals typically take place in the chatroom before they hook someone. Also how they select the people acting as decoys, and what steps they take to protect the mental health of the decoy.
I have no personal experience of this but what you describe sounds like very creepy behaviour by the police and not very ethical. No doubt they would argue that the ends justify the means.
It would be interesting to know how many of these decoy attempts are successful in catching someine out, ie how many interactions with different individuals typically take place in the chatroom before they hook someone. Also how they select the people acting as decoys, and what steps they take to protect the mental health of the decoy.
Pinksong
The sites I use are:
https://www.bailii.org/form/search_cases.html
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/
You can search by keywords. Not every case is available. It tends to be mainly court of appeal judgements.
The sites I use are:
https://www.bailii.org/form/search_cases.html
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/
You can search by keywords. Not every case is available. It tends to be mainly court of appeal judgements.
Thank you edel2020. I'll take a look x
I have a hard time believing these decoys aren't entrapment, but unfortunatley for us and our family members they aren't. That how my boyfriend got snared, but he didn't find out it was the police until his first hearing in Magistrate's Court. We were shocked as we were trying to rationalise this horrific experience as that his arrest in some way was going to bring about the conviction of a 'real' peadophile and therefore help save some chidren at risk. To find the whole thing was a ruse and no children were at risk was a shock. He was fully prepared to take a bullet to save children.
His contact started on a fetish website with contact made (I think initially) by the police. OH took the bait. He said he was more interested in finding out what goes through the head of a paedo, a bit like those true crime documentaries. He kind of played along. What jusry will believe that?! When he went to his plea hearing this week at Crown Court, his barrister read out to us part of the transcript between my OH and the police officer. I felt physically sick. Until then I had no idea what actually transpired during the conversation. If you decide you want to read the transcript be prepared to be disgusted. It's hard reconciling that dark side of someone you love as it seems so out of character.
Thankfully he saw sense and stopped contact, but the PO kept harrassing him by constantly sending him messages about arranging to meet up with his supposed 7 year old daughter. How is that even legal?! My OH never responded back, and he's pleaded not guilty to fascilitating the arrangement or whatever. Also, he's been charged whith downloading a sh*tload of Cat A-C images which he has no recollection doing. This is what frightens me. Can someone send you files of dodgy material that you don't even now is on your tech?!
His contact started on a fetish website with contact made (I think initially) by the police. OH took the bait. He said he was more interested in finding out what goes through the head of a paedo, a bit like those true crime documentaries. He kind of played along. What jusry will believe that?! When he went to his plea hearing this week at Crown Court, his barrister read out to us part of the transcript between my OH and the police officer. I felt physically sick. Until then I had no idea what actually transpired during the conversation. If you decide you want to read the transcript be prepared to be disgusted. It's hard reconciling that dark side of someone you love as it seems so out of character.
Thankfully he saw sense and stopped contact, but the PO kept harrassing him by constantly sending him messages about arranging to meet up with his supposed 7 year old daughter. How is that even legal?! My OH never responded back, and he's pleaded not guilty to fascilitating the arrangement or whatever. Also, he's been charged whith downloading a sh*tload of Cat A-C images which he has no recollection doing. This is what frightens me. Can someone send you files of dodgy material that you don't even now is on your tech?!