Why are police decoys allowed?!
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Has anyone looked into the legality of police decoys?
My partner got chatting to an adult woman (police decoy) who started talking about her (fake) daughter. He's never done anything like it previously etc. While I don't know the specifics of the conversations...he did tell me the dicsussion went as far as intercourse ????...he tells me he was enticed into talking about sexual acts with a child and just went along to appease the adult...mainly because he was an emotional mess at the time and looking for acceptance.
It's so annoying because I know that if he was given a simple warning he would desist FOREVER and wouldn't need to clog up the justice system. And it wouldn't impact his daughter and job ect. It seems like an easy collar for the police!
Mem just need help at this stage.
I'm a mother of a teen son and actually talk to him about the dangers of pornogaphy and managing his mental health. The older men (the ones who don't seek out contact offences) have never had that "chat" are lost.
My partner got chatting to an adult woman (police decoy) who started talking about her (fake) daughter. He's never done anything like it previously etc. While I don't know the specifics of the conversations...he did tell me the dicsussion went as far as intercourse ????...he tells me he was enticed into talking about sexual acts with a child and just went along to appease the adult...mainly because he was an emotional mess at the time and looking for acceptance.
It's so annoying because I know that if he was given a simple warning he would desist FOREVER and wouldn't need to clog up the justice system. And it wouldn't impact his daughter and job ect. It seems like an easy collar for the police!
Mem just need help at this stage.
I'm a mother of a teen son and actually talk to him about the dangers of pornogaphy and managing his mental health. The older men (the ones who don't seek out contact offences) have never had that "chat" are lost.
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It might be better to wait until you have the full details of the conversation, before making assumptions about entrapment.
The men who do this will always try to minimise what they have done, and portray themselves as innocent, but sadly the conversation often reveals something very different was going on.
The men who do this will always try to minimise what they have done, and portray themselves as innocent, but sadly the conversation often reveals something very different was going on.
I agree with Edel too. At first my ex OH thought it was a real father of a child and tried to console himself that at least his arrest helped to capture a paedophile and his arrest was an 'honourable' sacrific for the greater good. He then found out at his first hearing at Magistrates Court that it was a police officer. Suddenly he changed his tune and went down the entrapment route. I kept asking him what the conversation was about, and he kept telling me he couldn't remember! Honestly?! How could you not remember a conversation about THAT?!
I only found out the true story a year and a half after The Knock when his barrister read out extracts from the CPS's transcript of the conversation in a private meeting before the plea hearing. I was almost sick when I heard what he actually wrote in the conversation (which he still denies!). He's pleaded Not Guilty (I think) to encouraging and assisting, but I suspect the evidence the CPS has, including him sending the 'father' photos of himself to show the 'daughter' before they met, sending him a Cat B and Cat C image of another child someone sent him and inviting them to a caravan holiday on the coast could get him a prison sentence.
As someone who is now dealing with the reality of the truth, as opposed to what I was told by him, I think you need to steel yourself that you could be in for a real shock. The police know exactly how to word these conversations to avoid the issues of possible entrapment.
To be honest, after hearing the CPS's evidence I really wonder if he would have carried on down this dark rabbit hole if he hadn't been stopped.
I'm so sorry you have found yourself in this situation.
I only found out the true story a year and a half after The Knock when his barrister read out extracts from the CPS's transcript of the conversation in a private meeting before the plea hearing. I was almost sick when I heard what he actually wrote in the conversation (which he still denies!). He's pleaded Not Guilty (I think) to encouraging and assisting, but I suspect the evidence the CPS has, including him sending the 'father' photos of himself to show the 'daughter' before they met, sending him a Cat B and Cat C image of another child someone sent him and inviting them to a caravan holiday on the coast could get him a prison sentence.
As someone who is now dealing with the reality of the truth, as opposed to what I was told by him, I think you need to steel yourself that you could be in for a real shock. The police know exactly how to word these conversations to avoid the issues of possible entrapment.
To be honest, after hearing the CPS's evidence I really wonder if he would have carried on down this dark rabbit hole if he hadn't been stopped.
I'm so sorry you have found yourself in this situation.
Unless you have full disclosure, it is really hard ...
i agree with the posters in different ways. The transcripts don't illustrate the person we knew and loved. But...
I am now part of a campaign where full disclosure should be automatic where there are children (and we are the mothers). I should not have heard what i did at sentencing, and i understood why the police were so keen for me to attend.
It was traumatic. We should be given the full transcript and if there are any separate concerns, we should be informed. Full support should be given about what to say should the child make comments- we get training on CPR in first aid, but we don't get training on how to respond on comments which are - life changing.
In my case, the police said to me that once they knew he was a father, and his profession they coudln't wait for the meet (2 days later). based on conversations with him in the run up to the meet, i believe it would have happened. But i only found out the full details at sentencing. I only knew the date of the meet as the police had specifically asked me about a day coming up - so i knew there was a link. I remember him being excited, hopeful and really happy about the event he had planned.
And what i heard at court... and what i found in the house... in the clear up and his removal of belongings that day and days after, i can fully understand why he was a high risk. And what i heard at court regarding the images... and other things... the decoy saved children - and i am sorry to say - mine!
Criminal law is very complex.
I really hope your case is different as i wouldn't wish this on anyone, but you have referred to acts, and children... These are really important facts should CPS take this further.
i agree with the posters in different ways. The transcripts don't illustrate the person we knew and loved. But...
I am now part of a campaign where full disclosure should be automatic where there are children (and we are the mothers). I should not have heard what i did at sentencing, and i understood why the police were so keen for me to attend.
It was traumatic. We should be given the full transcript and if there are any separate concerns, we should be informed. Full support should be given about what to say should the child make comments- we get training on CPR in first aid, but we don't get training on how to respond on comments which are - life changing.
In my case, the police said to me that once they knew he was a father, and his profession they coudln't wait for the meet (2 days later). based on conversations with him in the run up to the meet, i believe it would have happened. But i only found out the full details at sentencing. I only knew the date of the meet as the police had specifically asked me about a day coming up - so i knew there was a link. I remember him being excited, hopeful and really happy about the event he had planned.
And what i heard at court... and what i found in the house... in the clear up and his removal of belongings that day and days after, i can fully understand why he was a high risk. And what i heard at court regarding the images... and other things... the decoy saved children - and i am sorry to say - mine!
Criminal law is very complex.
I really hope your case is different as i wouldn't wish this on anyone, but you have referred to acts, and children... These are really important facts should CPS take this further.
I'm so sorry to read your journey Nemesis.
my ex is under arrest for facilitating/arranging. The details of which I don't know yet as he's still under investigation.
im terrified of what will be revealed in court. Decoy or police/real mother or not I don't know. I am certain his defense will be 'it wasn't real' but I am now of the mind that, if you thought it, and you typed it, and you got sexual gratification from it - then it is real enough for me. And I don't want any part of that in my future, nor my children's.
my ex is under arrest for facilitating/arranging. The details of which I don't know yet as he's still under investigation.
im terrified of what will be revealed in court. Decoy or police/real mother or not I don't know. I am certain his defense will be 'it wasn't real' but I am now of the mind that, if you thought it, and you typed it, and you got sexual gratification from it - then it is real enough for me. And I don't want any part of that in my future, nor my children's.
The wording is key, and there are sentencing guidelines which also refers to the age of the child. So these are all key. The judge may not follow them, but in my ex's case, this could have been 13 years. As the courts consider this real, it is a very real crime.
My advice to anyone is be prepared, get the disclosure because there will be an impact whether you stay or don't. And the sooner the planning and thought process starts - the better. If the person is telling the truth, they won't have a problem with full disclosure.
My advice to anyone is be prepared, get the disclosure because there will be an impact whether you stay or don't. And the sooner the planning and thought process starts - the better. If the person is telling the truth, they won't have a problem with full disclosure.
My person (a relative but not my OH) was also talking to a police decoy (woman with child). We aren't at charging stage yet but I have said I need full disclosure to be able to rebuild a trusting relationship.
I agree with others who said that if the police get to the point of arrest it is very unlikely that the conversation is just an innocent misunderstanding/entrapment. Your person will almost definitely have said things that you will find totally unacceptable. Also what they say about it in the weeks after arrest will probably differ from what they say months down the line when the initial shock is over. It's worth waiting to see how it unfolds and not take any definitive decisions until you absolutely have to.
On the issue of police decoys, it is clear, though, that convictions for communication and arranging and facilitating have gone up hugely since police decoys have been used more widely (from 2018 onwards). I'm sure the police would say it's because their strategy is working, but it's also possible that more men are having these conversations because there are more people (decoys) to have them with. The 'woman offering her child for abuse' scenario seems to be the most common decoy scenario. I presume it's the most effective decoy scenario for convictions which is why it's used so often. I find it strange that this is the situation the police use most often given that the number of female offenders is less than 1%, so they are effectively creating a scenario that doesn't really exist in practice, or is hyper rare. One of these days, if I ever get round to it I'll put in a FOI request to get the splits on different decoy scenarios to check the real numbers and share them here.
take care of yourself - it can be a very long road.
I agree with others who said that if the police get to the point of arrest it is very unlikely that the conversation is just an innocent misunderstanding/entrapment. Your person will almost definitely have said things that you will find totally unacceptable. Also what they say about it in the weeks after arrest will probably differ from what they say months down the line when the initial shock is over. It's worth waiting to see how it unfolds and not take any definitive decisions until you absolutely have to.
On the issue of police decoys, it is clear, though, that convictions for communication and arranging and facilitating have gone up hugely since police decoys have been used more widely (from 2018 onwards). I'm sure the police would say it's because their strategy is working, but it's also possible that more men are having these conversations because there are more people (decoys) to have them with. The 'woman offering her child for abuse' scenario seems to be the most common decoy scenario. I presume it's the most effective decoy scenario for convictions which is why it's used so often. I find it strange that this is the situation the police use most often given that the number of female offenders is less than 1%, so they are effectively creating a scenario that doesn't really exist in practice, or is hyper rare. One of these days, if I ever get round to it I'll put in a FOI request to get the splits on different decoy scenarios to check the real numbers and share them here.
take care of yourself - it can be a very long road.
I did a FOI request for the breakdown of convictions based on decoy and non decoy, but it was denied as the it exceeded the cost threshold.
My partner had a conversation with another adult about sexually abusing a child. It was wrong and he should be punished, but I've read the start of the dialogue on a well known fetish site (it was in a open forum), I don't think this was a conversation he sought out but I also recognise that he responded to it when many wouldn't have and the decoy wouldn't have targeted him if he wasn't part of this discussion board. He had many choices along the way and ultimately chose many wrong ones. But I do also find it difficult to believe this is effectively catching the more dangerous offenders, I'd believe it more, if after arrest further non decoy /vigilantes conversations were found or images, but I see so many cases like my person's where one conversation happened, no other conversation and no images, search history etc.
My partner had a conversation with another adult about sexually abusing a child. It was wrong and he should be punished, but I've read the start of the dialogue on a well known fetish site (it was in a open forum), I don't think this was a conversation he sought out but I also recognise that he responded to it when many wouldn't have and the decoy wouldn't have targeted him if he wasn't part of this discussion board. He had many choices along the way and ultimately chose many wrong ones. But I do also find it difficult to believe this is effectively catching the more dangerous offenders, I'd believe it more, if after arrest further non decoy /vigilantes conversations were found or images, but I see so many cases like my person's where one conversation happened, no other conversation and no images, search history etc.
I can't say what my ex did other than it related to my own children not our children we shared. But we have been told not to go to court. They say he's no choice but to go guilty with the mountain of evidence they have. We don't know exactly what or how much just cat a and the offences against mine. I don't know if I can handle the full extent the officer in charge says it will be more traumatic than anything we have already been through. Bit at the same time my children need to know so if they decide to go I will have no choice I will stand there with them.
I'll be slated for saying this but no one held a gun to the head of a man who spoke to a decoy or real child.... it's the same!!
They had the choice to end the conversation as soon as an underaged child was even hinted at!!!
In my opinion the fact that men talk to an adult woman would be enough to end my relationship..... it's cheating
They had the choice to end the conversation as soon as an underaged child was even hinted at!!!
In my opinion the fact that men talk to an adult woman would be enough to end my relationship..... it's cheating
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I agree with you lost everything.
I think my ex was talking to a woman - no idea if a real mum, a decoy, a person with a child being offered or someone he groomed.
but basically the fact that he was communicating with someone behind my back is enough to end our relationship. I will never trust him again - too many lies and a completely betrayal. This is not a one off - this is continued communication behind my back over a period of months.
I think my ex was talking to a woman - no idea if a real mum, a decoy, a person with a child being offered or someone he groomed.
but basically the fact that he was communicating with someone behind my back is enough to end our relationship. I will never trust him again - too many lies and a completely betrayal. This is not a one off - this is continued communication behind my back over a period of months.
Hear hear!!!! Well done you xxx
Same with my husband, he had lots of conversations with many many women over many years, I have always refered to this as the revolving door of internet women, they came and went and it was completely inappropriate, a pattern. I no longer trust him, he betrayed me. Our marraige is over. I wish to erase him from my life for all time!!!!
I feel for you and can totally relate x
We deserve better than that x
We deserve better than that x
I will happily be the voice for everyone to put a stop to them creating criminals! Just not sure how to start
Has anyone looked into this ? I strongly believe that this strategy is destructive to society because it does not solve the problem. The images are still accessible , the apps and platforms are stil accessible to anyone. The government should perhaps invest in putting more blocks on these websites and platforms making it less accessible for children or add a face / age recognition if they are really interested in safeguarding children .
as per the so called offenders they should educate these people, providing support for them and their families whilst the education is taking place .
do anyone know who to contact in regards to this ? I believe this needs to be discussed and addressed in parliament!
as per the so called offenders they should educate these people, providing support for them and their families whilst the education is taking place .
do anyone know who to contact in regards to this ? I believe this needs to be discussed and addressed in parliament!
You could try contacting your local MP, or the National Police Chiefs Council (NPCC).
Although I expect they would point you towards the online safety bill which will hopefully bring in age verification next year. That should remove some of the perceived anonymity of apps like kik and that will act as a deterrent.
Although I expect they would point you towards the online safety bill which will hopefully bring in age verification next year. That should remove some of the perceived anonymity of apps like kik and that will act as a deterrent.
Queen
How strange that I was discussing this very issue with a trusted friend just yesterday
I won't know the extent of my husband's offending until the investigation concludes, I'm not even sure if the person he had the conversation with was a decoy or not - but if it was, and the police find nothing else, then how is that even fair?
I've accepted he has been chatting online to women and that's inappropriate but not illegal - he was, and still is, very vulnerable with anxiety, depression and low self esteem. He also insists he didn't know the person was underage. She instigated the conversation.
Until I know what the conversation was I can't really make a judgement and being only a few weeks into this merry hell I don't think I want to know yet - I need to process my feelings before I hear that information.
Decoy or not, the outcome will be the same, months and months of limbo and uncertainty, with a probable conviction at the end, which will ruin his life.
How strange that I was discussing this very issue with a trusted friend just yesterday
I won't know the extent of my husband's offending until the investigation concludes, I'm not even sure if the person he had the conversation with was a decoy or not - but if it was, and the police find nothing else, then how is that even fair?
I've accepted he has been chatting online to women and that's inappropriate but not illegal - he was, and still is, very vulnerable with anxiety, depression and low self esteem. He also insists he didn't know the person was underage. She instigated the conversation.
Until I know what the conversation was I can't really make a judgement and being only a few weeks into this merry hell I don't think I want to know yet - I need to process my feelings before I hear that information.
Decoy or not, the outcome will be the same, months and months of limbo and uncertainty, with a probable conviction at the end, which will ruin his life.
I really think we should all come together and get this out there that there should be better ways around it
Hi, my ex is about to be sentenced for downloading "pseudo" images of children, so not even real. In law it makes no difference. It's hard to get one's head around. X
Can someone explain how you get "full disclosure"?
Does my OH have to have been charged for me to see this? At this point he has been released on bail until January.
TIA
Does my OH have to have been charged for me to see this? At this point he has been released on bail until January.
TIA