Allowing brother contact with my son
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Hi,
I have read a few of the posts on here and as everyone seems so supportive and no one in my life can really understand I thought I would see if anyone is in a similar situation to me, or has siblings/adult children in the same boat. I just want to hear what other people have done and why when deciding if someone convicted of possessing cp can have contact with their children.
So here goes...
My brother (27 at the time) who lived with my parents (and still does) was arrested four years ago for possessing cp. He had about 20 images but from what I can understand he had been doing it for some time and the only reason the number is so low is that it was a new computer. My mother initially tried to hide the reason for his arrest from me but well, I'm not stupid....
He was given a suspended sentence and as a family we decided to support him. While I did ask a few questions, and I know my mum did privately too, we have never had an opportunity to all sit down together and discuss what he has done and how we all feel about it. We have only ever discussed what is going to happen to him. I think we have all been worried that given his depression, if he went to prison he may hurt himself, or someone else would. Well, he went to prison last year for breaching his suspended sentence. He was found guilty of deleting his internet history - although no other evidence of searches/images. I do believe him that this was a mistake on his part and that he had not reoffended. After his initial arrest he attended the Lucy Faithful foundation course etc.
When he went to prison we were again all so worried about him being hurt the focus was again all on just getting through it and getting him home. My mum as you can imagine has been in bits about this for years now. She is still struggling and I think in denial.
While I can support him through this things have now been complicated with the arrival last year of my son (now 1). When he was born my brother was in prison and there was a lot of pressure from my mum for me and my partner to be ok with him seeing my son and being an uncle when he got home (totally supervised of course). My partner felt he had to go along with this as he hadn't known my parents long. We also both underestimated how we would feel about things when our child was actually here and seeing my brother interact with him.
While I love my brother and still know there are many good sides to him, I cannot get over (or my head around) what he was done, and I have so many questions for him. My mother is sure it was a pornography addiction however I am as yet unconvinved given a few questionable details. Having my son has also changed my feelings on things.
We decided to stop contact between my brother and my son (it was always supervised and only on about 5 occassions prior) in January untill we can discuss things all together and ask the questions we need answers to. I am so angry at my brother and also my mum. She has made the whole thing about how she feels, how he feels, and trying to protect him. I get that, she's his mum, but she's my mum too and I feel she has forgotten that. And part of me wants my parents to hear some of the questions and answers of my brother because I think they are in denial and that is why they are so angry at me that we are questioning his contact with our son. They do not see him as a risk. I do not think they have really contemplated what he has done as it is too difficult for them so they have avoided knowing details etc. Even if I don't think he is an real risk I am so worried about how our son will feel when he is older and finds out what his uncle did and that we allowed him contact?!!! And I will not lie to him and never tell him as I have learnt what lies do to families.
Please help, I do not know what to do and keep switching between "limited contact in public places, explaining that we don't fully trust uncle and that mummy or daddy alwasys has to be there or its not safe" to "no contact and having to explain why"
My mum is so focussed on not having her family ripped apart I feel she isn't thinking about what is best for my son, only what can continue her denial at the situation, and the impact of us not trusting my brother on my brother.
I'm sorry this is so long and if anyone has reached the end and is able to help I would be so grateful! xx
I have read a few of the posts on here and as everyone seems so supportive and no one in my life can really understand I thought I would see if anyone is in a similar situation to me, or has siblings/adult children in the same boat. I just want to hear what other people have done and why when deciding if someone convicted of possessing cp can have contact with their children.
So here goes...
My brother (27 at the time) who lived with my parents (and still does) was arrested four years ago for possessing cp. He had about 20 images but from what I can understand he had been doing it for some time and the only reason the number is so low is that it was a new computer. My mother initially tried to hide the reason for his arrest from me but well, I'm not stupid....
He was given a suspended sentence and as a family we decided to support him. While I did ask a few questions, and I know my mum did privately too, we have never had an opportunity to all sit down together and discuss what he has done and how we all feel about it. We have only ever discussed what is going to happen to him. I think we have all been worried that given his depression, if he went to prison he may hurt himself, or someone else would. Well, he went to prison last year for breaching his suspended sentence. He was found guilty of deleting his internet history - although no other evidence of searches/images. I do believe him that this was a mistake on his part and that he had not reoffended. After his initial arrest he attended the Lucy Faithful foundation course etc.
When he went to prison we were again all so worried about him being hurt the focus was again all on just getting through it and getting him home. My mum as you can imagine has been in bits about this for years now. She is still struggling and I think in denial.
While I can support him through this things have now been complicated with the arrival last year of my son (now 1). When he was born my brother was in prison and there was a lot of pressure from my mum for me and my partner to be ok with him seeing my son and being an uncle when he got home (totally supervised of course). My partner felt he had to go along with this as he hadn't known my parents long. We also both underestimated how we would feel about things when our child was actually here and seeing my brother interact with him.
While I love my brother and still know there are many good sides to him, I cannot get over (or my head around) what he was done, and I have so many questions for him. My mother is sure it was a pornography addiction however I am as yet unconvinved given a few questionable details. Having my son has also changed my feelings on things.
We decided to stop contact between my brother and my son (it was always supervised and only on about 5 occassions prior) in January untill we can discuss things all together and ask the questions we need answers to. I am so angry at my brother and also my mum. She has made the whole thing about how she feels, how he feels, and trying to protect him. I get that, she's his mum, but she's my mum too and I feel she has forgotten that. And part of me wants my parents to hear some of the questions and answers of my brother because I think they are in denial and that is why they are so angry at me that we are questioning his contact with our son. They do not see him as a risk. I do not think they have really contemplated what he has done as it is too difficult for them so they have avoided knowing details etc. Even if I don't think he is an real risk I am so worried about how our son will feel when he is older and finds out what his uncle did and that we allowed him contact?!!! And I will not lie to him and never tell him as I have learnt what lies do to families.
Please help, I do not know what to do and keep switching between "limited contact in public places, explaining that we don't fully trust uncle and that mummy or daddy alwasys has to be there or its not safe" to "no contact and having to explain why"
My mum is so focussed on not having her family ripped apart I feel she isn't thinking about what is best for my son, only what can continue her denial at the situation, and the impact of us not trusting my brother on my brother.
I'm sorry this is so long and if anyone has reached the end and is able to help I would be so grateful! xx
Hi,
i fully understand your concerns and it probably doesn’t help that your family are not very open about what has happened in the past.
Firstly from what I understand looking at iioc does not mean that the person will then go on to sexually abuse a child. Your brother has been punished for his crime and has done rehabilitation work also.
Personally I think supervised contact would be appropriate in this situation . You can see how things go. You do have to go with your gut feeling though.
Xx
i fully understand your concerns and it probably doesn’t help that your family are not very open about what has happened in the past.
Firstly from what I understand looking at iioc does not mean that the person will then go on to sexually abuse a child. Your brother has been punished for his crime and has done rehabilitation work also.
Personally I think supervised contact would be appropriate in this situation . You can see how things go. You do have to go with your gut feeling though.
Xx
Hi
we have been in a similar situation to you. In fact it’s almost identical apart from our son it was communication offence with 14/15 years old. Our son is in prison at the moment because in court communication offence is worse than looking at images apparently.
Anyway, our daughter has a son who’s a toddler. She was quite upset when we told her as she’s very close to her brother. She’s at downwith him by herself and got the answers to her questions. She’s happy for her brother to spend time with her son when he comes home but it has to be supervised. This is a requirement from social services as I’m sure you’ll already know. Didsocial services contact you when it first came to light?
i can tell you that rightly or wrongly, our daughter said if her brother had viewed child abuse images she may have found it harder o allow contact. I don’t necessarily agree with that because most men who look at that are doing so from porn addictions. It’s a bit like drugs, you smoke soft drugs, in time you need something stronger so move up to the next level. I believe it’s the same as porn addiction, eventually you need to move up a level. Most men who look at child porn do not go on to abuse children but I think your absolutely right to air on the side of cation.
my advise would be to sit down with your brother, just you and him and get some answers to you and your husbands questions then decide what to do from there. That’s what our daughter did. I was glad we had told her everything as it happened because it was reported in the papers so had she not known the full story it would have been so much harder for her to cope x
we have been in a similar situation to you. In fact it’s almost identical apart from our son it was communication offence with 14/15 years old. Our son is in prison at the moment because in court communication offence is worse than looking at images apparently.
Anyway, our daughter has a son who’s a toddler. She was quite upset when we told her as she’s very close to her brother. She’s at downwith him by herself and got the answers to her questions. She’s happy for her brother to spend time with her son when he comes home but it has to be supervised. This is a requirement from social services as I’m sure you’ll already know. Didsocial services contact you when it first came to light?
i can tell you that rightly or wrongly, our daughter said if her brother had viewed child abuse images she may have found it harder o allow contact. I don’t necessarily agree with that because most men who look at that are doing so from porn addictions. It’s a bit like drugs, you smoke soft drugs, in time you need something stronger so move up to the next level. I believe it’s the same as porn addiction, eventually you need to move up a level. Most men who look at child porn do not go on to abuse children but I think your absolutely right to air on the side of cation.
my advise would be to sit down with your brother, just you and him and get some answers to you and your husbands questions then decide what to do from there. That’s what our daughter did. I was glad we had told her everything as it happened because it was reported in the papers so had she not known the full story it would have been so much harder for her to cope x
Thank you all for your replies, I really appreciate them.
Poster, I was definitely planning on taking a "may change in the future" approach, as I had already decided that when my son is old enough to understand if he wants to/is ok to be around my brother then that would be fine, as I don't think my brother is an awful person never to be seen again or anything like that.
nicenana - thank you so much for sharing. Do you mind me asking, do you think your daughter is ok with her son being around her brother because the offence was in relation to an older child and so she doesn't think there is a risk there (also presumably from what your son has said as well) ?
I understand that most men who view iioc don't go on to abuse children themselves however it is also the worry of what my son will think about us deciding that for him, of the implied position of trust his uncle would be in as we obviously couldn't explain anything about this till he was older, and the effect it might have on him to find out someone he thought knew had done this when we do tell him. I think my mums pressure to have everything be 'normal' and so a normal uncle/nephew relationship is making it worse as I just don't want to put him through the hurt of finding out someone you care about has done this and isn't the person you thought they were :/
We have planned for my parents, partner and brother to sit down and have a frank conversation, explaining that we have some questions we need answers to so hopefully like with your daughter that will help. It feels like deciding with half the information otherwise. I had wanted my parents to hear my brothers answers as well, although that might sound cruel, but my mother has been in denial about what he's done and what it means for four years now, hence the pressure to be normal. Do you think that is wrong?
Social services haven't been involved as I wasn't even pregnant at the time of his arrest and only found out I was pregnant when he was in prison. I have spoken to the police for them to check I am aware of his offences and that contact must be supervised.
Poster, I was definitely planning on taking a "may change in the future" approach, as I had already decided that when my son is old enough to understand if he wants to/is ok to be around my brother then that would be fine, as I don't think my brother is an awful person never to be seen again or anything like that.
nicenana - thank you so much for sharing. Do you mind me asking, do you think your daughter is ok with her son being around her brother because the offence was in relation to an older child and so she doesn't think there is a risk there (also presumably from what your son has said as well) ?
I understand that most men who view iioc don't go on to abuse children themselves however it is also the worry of what my son will think about us deciding that for him, of the implied position of trust his uncle would be in as we obviously couldn't explain anything about this till he was older, and the effect it might have on him to find out someone he thought knew had done this when we do tell him. I think my mums pressure to have everything be 'normal' and so a normal uncle/nephew relationship is making it worse as I just don't want to put him through the hurt of finding out someone you care about has done this and isn't the person you thought they were :/
We have planned for my parents, partner and brother to sit down and have a frank conversation, explaining that we have some questions we need answers to so hopefully like with your daughter that will help. It feels like deciding with half the information otherwise. I had wanted my parents to hear my brothers answers as well, although that might sound cruel, but my mother has been in denial about what he's done and what it means for four years now, hence the pressure to be normal. Do you think that is wrong?
Social services haven't been involved as I wasn't even pregnant at the time of his arrest and only found out I was pregnant when he was in prison. I have spoken to the police for them to check I am aware of his offences and that contact must be supervised.
Hi again
Being honest and frank, yes I think the fact our son was talking to someone older and had no child abuse on his devices made it far easier to make the decision she has made. He’d had the same phone and iPad for five years and they found no child abuse on it at all. That does not make hat he did right. I do not agree with what he did and I’ve told everyone that. Our daughter also does not agree with it. Myself , my husband, daughter and extended family have all stood by him and supported him. However, our son is well aware that if he did this again or anything similar it would be hard for us all to stand by him.bi know my son regrets his actions a lot. I see it in him every time we visit him. He is devastated that we have had to deal with things which were no fault of our own but it’s happened and no amount of anger can change it. All we can do is get on with it.
As for your mum. I understand her like most could not simply because I have been in her position. When this first happened I was in complete denial. My daughter was amazing and faced it head on with my husband. I did not learn the full extent of it until six months after he was charged simply because I refused to hear any of it. Six months in something changed. What I don’t know but I then wanted to face it head on and I did. It did not make it easier but I had to do it.
I have to say, four years is a long time for anyone to be in denial. Your mum will be devastated and just not wanting to accept the truth. That the child she gave birth to has looked at things most people wouldn’t dream of looking at. She has to live with that and that is not easy. I know how it felt for me and that’s without child abuse images.
your brother is more than likely not a bad person. He’s a good man who’s done a stupid thing. That said, you do all need to sit down and get to the root of it for a few reasons . For your own sake because of your son first and foremost. The other reason is you need to know why your brother did this. Only then can you decided what to do about your son. Also depending on why he did it he may need help to try and stop him doing it again.. You can’t really help and treat someone if they won’t open up about why they did what they did and approach the right people for any help he needs.
does your brother intend to live with your parents on release? Do your parents have your little one at their house to stay? Social worker visited our daughter when this first happened to make sure there was no unsupervised contact. said case closed and won’t be back when he comes home but who knows if they will reopen it when he’s home.
anything else just ask x
Being honest and frank, yes I think the fact our son was talking to someone older and had no child abuse on his devices made it far easier to make the decision she has made. He’d had the same phone and iPad for five years and they found no child abuse on it at all. That does not make hat he did right. I do not agree with what he did and I’ve told everyone that. Our daughter also does not agree with it. Myself , my husband, daughter and extended family have all stood by him and supported him. However, our son is well aware that if he did this again or anything similar it would be hard for us all to stand by him.bi know my son regrets his actions a lot. I see it in him every time we visit him. He is devastated that we have had to deal with things which were no fault of our own but it’s happened and no amount of anger can change it. All we can do is get on with it.
As for your mum. I understand her like most could not simply because I have been in her position. When this first happened I was in complete denial. My daughter was amazing and faced it head on with my husband. I did not learn the full extent of it until six months after he was charged simply because I refused to hear any of it. Six months in something changed. What I don’t know but I then wanted to face it head on and I did. It did not make it easier but I had to do it.
I have to say, four years is a long time for anyone to be in denial. Your mum will be devastated and just not wanting to accept the truth. That the child she gave birth to has looked at things most people wouldn’t dream of looking at. She has to live with that and that is not easy. I know how it felt for me and that’s without child abuse images.
your brother is more than likely not a bad person. He’s a good man who’s done a stupid thing. That said, you do all need to sit down and get to the root of it for a few reasons . For your own sake because of your son first and foremost. The other reason is you need to know why your brother did this. Only then can you decided what to do about your son. Also depending on why he did it he may need help to try and stop him doing it again.. You can’t really help and treat someone if they won’t open up about why they did what they did and approach the right people for any help he needs.
does your brother intend to live with your parents on release? Do your parents have your little one at their house to stay? Social worker visited our daughter when this first happened to make sure there was no unsupervised contact. said case closed and won’t be back when he comes home but who knows if they will reopen it when he’s home.
anything else just ask x
Hi Angrysister
thanks for sharing on here. It sounds like this is a really difficult situation for you and the family dynamics are really hard. I can’t give any personal experience as it is my partner who is being investigated, but I have had experience of being pressured by family to behave “normally” when family members have substance misuse problems.
Things change so much when you have your own kids don’t they? Once I had babies of my own I made a decision I didn’t want them exposed to other people’s substance misuse problems - this has caused many problems s over the years but you do have to stand your ground and decide what you feel comfortable with for your own kids. This has meant that there are some important family occasions we have not attended, but I am really comfortable with that decision. It can be so very hard when your mum seemingly makes a choice to compromise on your stance - it can feel very hurtful. But you have your own family now, and just as she is trying to protect her kids, you too have a right to protect your kids in any way you see fit. It can be really hard, but just try not to make it into a case of trying to find out who your mum “loves” more - I’m sure she loves you both equally but perhaps thinks your brother needs more support than you as you seem so “together”.
But just as she has to make the choice of which child to support more at the moment, you too now have a child (who is much more vulnerable than your brother) to support and you have the difficult life-long task of working out the best way to do this. Poster has given (as always) great advice about how to frame it.
i am supporting my partner and also having done the Inform course I am even more confident that iioc does not mean that these men want to contact offend. However if I think about when I had my first child I am not sure how I would feel - everything felt threatening then - I remember looking at the exhaust fumes from cars and thinking about the air my baby was breathing. So I would say do not be pressurised to move to any pOsition that you are not comfortable with. My children have no aunts and uncles to speak of becAuse of the substance misuse problems I was talking about. But it was the right choice and I’m glad I made it. Stick to what your gut tells you, don’t let your family pressure you into anything that makes you feel uncomfortable. X
thanks for sharing on here. It sounds like this is a really difficult situation for you and the family dynamics are really hard. I can’t give any personal experience as it is my partner who is being investigated, but I have had experience of being pressured by family to behave “normally” when family members have substance misuse problems.
Things change so much when you have your own kids don’t they? Once I had babies of my own I made a decision I didn’t want them exposed to other people’s substance misuse problems - this has caused many problems s over the years but you do have to stand your ground and decide what you feel comfortable with for your own kids. This has meant that there are some important family occasions we have not attended, but I am really comfortable with that decision. It can be so very hard when your mum seemingly makes a choice to compromise on your stance - it can feel very hurtful. But you have your own family now, and just as she is trying to protect her kids, you too have a right to protect your kids in any way you see fit. It can be really hard, but just try not to make it into a case of trying to find out who your mum “loves” more - I’m sure she loves you both equally but perhaps thinks your brother needs more support than you as you seem so “together”.
But just as she has to make the choice of which child to support more at the moment, you too now have a child (who is much more vulnerable than your brother) to support and you have the difficult life-long task of working out the best way to do this. Poster has given (as always) great advice about how to frame it.
i am supporting my partner and also having done the Inform course I am even more confident that iioc does not mean that these men want to contact offend. However if I think about when I had my first child I am not sure how I would feel - everything felt threatening then - I remember looking at the exhaust fumes from cars and thinking about the air my baby was breathing. So I would say do not be pressurised to move to any pOsition that you are not comfortable with. My children have no aunts and uncles to speak of becAuse of the substance misuse problems I was talking about. But it was the right choice and I’m glad I made it. Stick to what your gut tells you, don’t let your family pressure you into anything that makes you feel uncomfortable. X
Me again sorry for the delayed response -
Nincenana - my brother has been living with them again since his release over a year ago, they live four hours away so wouldn't have my son over anyway, it just means we now can't come and visit as we have decided we definitely do not want to stay overnight in the same house as him at the very least, as I feel even with us there this increases the risk and contact. I have no idea when he will move out, I fear never, which means I will never be able to go home, which makes me very sad. Social services have never been involved, possibly also due to crossing duristictions, I don't know
Big Sigh - thank you so much for your response. It sounds like you made a very brave decision to protect your kids, well done, really. I feel like I know what my gut for now wants, no, or very VERY minial contact - I'm talking rare rare family events - at least until my son is older, its just having the guts to set that boundary when my mum is being quite abusive and manipulative about it. I totally understand what Nicenana is saying about how she will be trying to come to terms with the fact her baby did that - she clearly hasn't come to terms with it and is just waiting until things go back to normal - but its the pressure on me and my partner to allow contact for my brothers sake that is really hurtful. She doesn't want my brother to think no one will ever trust him if even his sister doesn't, she isn't thinking about what is best for my son at all and the message that sends. She certainly isn't thinking about what I want/need and I fear that if I said I wanted her to keep the relationship seperate as others have suggested she would just distance herself from us, I don't want my son to loose a loving grandmother as she really is. I feel she's not in a good place mentally and I don't know how to help/get through to her that she needs to face up to this. Four years is too long!
I will try and take on board everyone's suggestions, thank you all so much. Fingers crossed that the chat we have planned as a family in November gets to the bottom of things as much as it can and we find a way forward. xx
Nincenana - my brother has been living with them again since his release over a year ago, they live four hours away so wouldn't have my son over anyway, it just means we now can't come and visit as we have decided we definitely do not want to stay overnight in the same house as him at the very least, as I feel even with us there this increases the risk and contact. I have no idea when he will move out, I fear never, which means I will never be able to go home, which makes me very sad. Social services have never been involved, possibly also due to crossing duristictions, I don't know
Big Sigh - thank you so much for your response. It sounds like you made a very brave decision to protect your kids, well done, really. I feel like I know what my gut for now wants, no, or very VERY minial contact - I'm talking rare rare family events - at least until my son is older, its just having the guts to set that boundary when my mum is being quite abusive and manipulative about it. I totally understand what Nicenana is saying about how she will be trying to come to terms with the fact her baby did that - she clearly hasn't come to terms with it and is just waiting until things go back to normal - but its the pressure on me and my partner to allow contact for my brothers sake that is really hurtful. She doesn't want my brother to think no one will ever trust him if even his sister doesn't, she isn't thinking about what is best for my son at all and the message that sends. She certainly isn't thinking about what I want/need and I fear that if I said I wanted her to keep the relationship seperate as others have suggested she would just distance herself from us, I don't want my son to loose a loving grandmother as she really is. I feel she's not in a good place mentally and I don't know how to help/get through to her that she needs to face up to this. Four years is too long!
I will try and take on board everyone's suggestions, thank you all so much. Fingers crossed that the chat we have planned as a family in November gets to the bottom of things as much as it can and we find a way forward. xx
Hi angrysister
i know exactly what you mean. My daughter and I did not have issues but that’s only because I realised early on that all my time was taken up with her brother and his sister. It seemed my mind could not process anything more than that. Thankfully I realised this quickly and put a lot of extra effort and time in with my daughter so she went unaffected as far as her and I were concerned.
As far as you wanting no contact for your little one goes, you can only go with what you and your husband feels. Although my son will be on the register when he comes home it wasn’t for abuse images. It was communication offence. I’m not sure what any of us would have done had it been real child abuse images. Nobody knows what they’d do until they’ve walked a mile down that road. Do what’s right for your family and the rest will fall into place over time c
i know exactly what you mean. My daughter and I did not have issues but that’s only because I realised early on that all my time was taken up with her brother and his sister. It seemed my mind could not process anything more than that. Thankfully I realised this quickly and put a lot of extra effort and time in with my daughter so she went unaffected as far as her and I were concerned.
As far as you wanting no contact for your little one goes, you can only go with what you and your husband feels. Although my son will be on the register when he comes home it wasn’t for abuse images. It was communication offence. I’m not sure what any of us would have done had it been real child abuse images. Nobody knows what they’d do until they’ve walked a mile down that road. Do what’s right for your family and the rest will fall into place over time c
Over time x