Is there a link between low self esteem and attraction to children?
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Trigger warning; I have wanted to write about this for a while, but I recognise that it can be triggering for a lot of people. Many people on the forum, cannot bear the thought, that their loved one might have any attraction to children at all, no matter how small it might be. If you are one of those people, then I would recommend that you stop reading now, because what I have to say will be quite disturbing.
My reason for writing this, is to try and address a question that comes up a lot. Are these men the P word or not? My reason for addressing this question now, is the TV show Adolescence. That programme is about one aspect of mens low self esteem, namely the way that low self esteem leads to misogyny and hatred towards women.
But I want to examine another possible consequence of that low self esteem, which is a sexual attraction to children. To begin with, I want to look at what it means to be the P word. The popular media representation of this kind of attraction, is as something that is there forever and it can never change.
For at least 20 years though, there has been another type of attraction mentioned in the academic research, which is referred to as regressed paedophilia. This type of attraction is temporary and it does change, according to a persons circumstances.
The kind of attraction that never changes, is known as fixated paedophlia. This has dominated the media discussion about what a P word is. The regressed kind of attraction never gets mentioned. I want to talk about the regressed type only. There are many men who have the fixated kind of attraction and these probably make up about 25% of the men who LFF speak to.
So, what about the other 75%? I think many of them will be the regressed kind of P word. I know this is controversial, and that most of us dont want to hear it, but understanding how the regressed model works is essential for understanding a lot of the behaviour we see from these men.
To start with, I think that the P word is misleading for this kind of men. Paedophilia refers to an attraction to children under 11. But a lot of the regressed men, only seem to regress back as far as being attracted to 13 to 16 year olds. This should really be called regressed hebephilia, not regressed paedophilia. That is something else the media portrayal of the men fails to acknowedge.
However, this only applies to the men who are chatting to 13 to 15 year olds online. There are plenty of men looking at images of children under the age of 11. Despite that, I still think they are mainly regressed and not fixated. I believe their attraction to children is temporary and it is linked to their low self esteem.
What we know about toxic masculinity, is that it creates a tremendous focus on competition, success and status, for men. The boy in Adolescence, sees himself as failing as a man. Thats because he is not good at sport, and has been rejected by a girl he likes. He has very low self esteem, as a result of his perceived lack of success in life. Social status for men, is not just about money. It also includes success in relationships, success in competition with other men, or winning of any kind.
Again and again, when I read about the men who commit the offences we see on this forum; both communication and images, I see men who are socially isolated, dont have many friends, and who spend a lot of time online. I expect that all of them had low self esteem when they offended and they all regard themselves as having failed in some aspect of their lives.
The regressed model of attraction says that certain men, during periods of stress in their life, can develop an attraction to children or teenagers. At other times, they have a perfectly normal attraction to people of a similar age to themselves.
We tend to think of sexual attraction, as something that is always fixed and it never ever changes. Juliet Grayson, one of the therapists who helped to set up StopSO, says that attraction to children exists on a spectrum. Some men have a very strong attraction and it hardly changes at all. Those men would fit the description of a fixated P word. Other men have a far smaller attraction to children. Yet crucially, they can move around on the spectrum. They do not maintain the same level of attraction for the whole of their lives.
I think that the attraction increases during periods of low self esteem and stress and there are two main reasons for this. Power and opportunity.
The opportunity comes from the internet, because men now have an ability to talk to underage girls and view images of kids, that simply did not exist before. That creates a temptation, which a lot of them cannot resist. Gareth Southgate talked about boys retreating into an online world of gaming, gambling and porn. The boys and men, because this is not just about teenage boys, who are most likely to find that online world attractive are the ones with the lowest self esteem.
But the need for power is what drives the attraction. Men with low self esteem want to feel powerful, dominant and in control. They can get these feelings from watching any kind of porn, but I expect those feelings are enhanced if the girl is younger. Their attraction to children is an attraction to vulnerability. The more vulnerable the girl, the greater the attraction. The reason these men prefer to chat to 14 year olds, rather than 34 year olds, is that they feel more powerful, more dominant and more in control, with a child, than with an adult.
The obvious question is how does porn addiction fit into this? The men could be looking at any kind of porn, but they seem to choose the most extreme stuff, which doesnt just include children, it also includes animals for example, so do they have an attraction to animals as well? That seems unlikely, and a lot of these attractions do not exist offline either. They only exist online, in a kind of fantasy world, that is in the persons head. So my conclusion is that these types of attractions are not just temporary, they are also situation specific.
That contradicts our common understanding of sexual attraction, which is that a person who is attracted to something online, must also be attracted to it offline. That may not be true, just as it may not be true, that a persons sexual preferences never change during their lifetime. Michael Seto points to the fact that people tend to be attracted to older people, as they themselves grow old, which suggests again, that our attractions can and do change with time.
It is also worth mentioning, that nobody really knows where any of our sexual attractions come from. This is a very under researched area. The only real theory I can find, is John Moneys idea of imprinting. If I am right, then we really need to rethink our notion of sexual preferences as being a permanent thing.
I should say as well, that not all men with fit neatly into the boxes that I have described. There are exceptions to every rule. Anyway, those are my thoughts.
My reason for writing this, is to try and address a question that comes up a lot. Are these men the P word or not? My reason for addressing this question now, is the TV show Adolescence. That programme is about one aspect of mens low self esteem, namely the way that low self esteem leads to misogyny and hatred towards women.
But I want to examine another possible consequence of that low self esteem, which is a sexual attraction to children. To begin with, I want to look at what it means to be the P word. The popular media representation of this kind of attraction, is as something that is there forever and it can never change.
For at least 20 years though, there has been another type of attraction mentioned in the academic research, which is referred to as regressed paedophilia. This type of attraction is temporary and it does change, according to a persons circumstances.
The kind of attraction that never changes, is known as fixated paedophlia. This has dominated the media discussion about what a P word is. The regressed kind of attraction never gets mentioned. I want to talk about the regressed type only. There are many men who have the fixated kind of attraction and these probably make up about 25% of the men who LFF speak to.
So, what about the other 75%? I think many of them will be the regressed kind of P word. I know this is controversial, and that most of us dont want to hear it, but understanding how the regressed model works is essential for understanding a lot of the behaviour we see from these men.
To start with, I think that the P word is misleading for this kind of men. Paedophilia refers to an attraction to children under 11. But a lot of the regressed men, only seem to regress back as far as being attracted to 13 to 16 year olds. This should really be called regressed hebephilia, not regressed paedophilia. That is something else the media portrayal of the men fails to acknowedge.
However, this only applies to the men who are chatting to 13 to 15 year olds online. There are plenty of men looking at images of children under the age of 11. Despite that, I still think they are mainly regressed and not fixated. I believe their attraction to children is temporary and it is linked to their low self esteem.
What we know about toxic masculinity, is that it creates a tremendous focus on competition, success and status, for men. The boy in Adolescence, sees himself as failing as a man. Thats because he is not good at sport, and has been rejected by a girl he likes. He has very low self esteem, as a result of his perceived lack of success in life. Social status for men, is not just about money. It also includes success in relationships, success in competition with other men, or winning of any kind.
Again and again, when I read about the men who commit the offences we see on this forum; both communication and images, I see men who are socially isolated, dont have many friends, and who spend a lot of time online. I expect that all of them had low self esteem when they offended and they all regard themselves as having failed in some aspect of their lives.
The regressed model of attraction says that certain men, during periods of stress in their life, can develop an attraction to children or teenagers. At other times, they have a perfectly normal attraction to people of a similar age to themselves.
We tend to think of sexual attraction, as something that is always fixed and it never ever changes. Juliet Grayson, one of the therapists who helped to set up StopSO, says that attraction to children exists on a spectrum. Some men have a very strong attraction and it hardly changes at all. Those men would fit the description of a fixated P word. Other men have a far smaller attraction to children. Yet crucially, they can move around on the spectrum. They do not maintain the same level of attraction for the whole of their lives.
I think that the attraction increases during periods of low self esteem and stress and there are two main reasons for this. Power and opportunity.
The opportunity comes from the internet, because men now have an ability to talk to underage girls and view images of kids, that simply did not exist before. That creates a temptation, which a lot of them cannot resist. Gareth Southgate talked about boys retreating into an online world of gaming, gambling and porn. The boys and men, because this is not just about teenage boys, who are most likely to find that online world attractive are the ones with the lowest self esteem.
But the need for power is what drives the attraction. Men with low self esteem want to feel powerful, dominant and in control. They can get these feelings from watching any kind of porn, but I expect those feelings are enhanced if the girl is younger. Their attraction to children is an attraction to vulnerability. The more vulnerable the girl, the greater the attraction. The reason these men prefer to chat to 14 year olds, rather than 34 year olds, is that they feel more powerful, more dominant and more in control, with a child, than with an adult.
The obvious question is how does porn addiction fit into this? The men could be looking at any kind of porn, but they seem to choose the most extreme stuff, which doesnt just include children, it also includes animals for example, so do they have an attraction to animals as well? That seems unlikely, and a lot of these attractions do not exist offline either. They only exist online, in a kind of fantasy world, that is in the persons head. So my conclusion is that these types of attractions are not just temporary, they are also situation specific.
That contradicts our common understanding of sexual attraction, which is that a person who is attracted to something online, must also be attracted to it offline. That may not be true, just as it may not be true, that a persons sexual preferences never change during their lifetime. Michael Seto points to the fact that people tend to be attracted to older people, as they themselves grow old, which suggests again, that our attractions can and do change with time.
It is also worth mentioning, that nobody really knows where any of our sexual attractions come from. This is a very under researched area. The only real theory I can find, is John Moneys idea of imprinting. If I am right, then we really need to rethink our notion of sexual preferences as being a permanent thing.
I should say as well, that not all men with fit neatly into the boxes that I have described. There are exceptions to every rule. Anyway, those are my thoughts.
I read this with great interest as a man who has struggled with low self esteem for most of my life and is also likely on the autistic spectrum (waiting on diagnosis) so the two main contributing factors that lead men down this rabbit hole.
On paper most would say I have a good life; reasonably well paid job in a field I enjoy, own house, car, holidays, long term relationship, good ties with family etc. But to be honest I have never felt I have earned or deserve any of this, it all feels hollow and I really don’t know why?
I can easily see why some men withdraw into the online world. I admit I’m guilty of it myself and I occasionally worry my internet usage is bordering on problematic (before anyone starts worrying I’ve not committed offences myself). Online you can be who you feel you should be not the failure you feel you are in real life, it’s a coping mechanism like alcohol or drugs or gambling and just like alcohol, drugs or gambling its not necessarily a good coping strategy.
I wonder if the regressed theory could go further than just being attracted to children during particuarly stressful or low times. I wonder if the person is actually internally regressing to a teenager themselves, a time in their life when none of the stresses of adulting existed. Just a thought.
On paper most would say I have a good life; reasonably well paid job in a field I enjoy, own house, car, holidays, long term relationship, good ties with family etc. But to be honest I have never felt I have earned or deserve any of this, it all feels hollow and I really don’t know why?
I can easily see why some men withdraw into the online world. I admit I’m guilty of it myself and I occasionally worry my internet usage is bordering on problematic (before anyone starts worrying I’ve not committed offences myself). Online you can be who you feel you should be not the failure you feel you are in real life, it’s a coping mechanism like alcohol or drugs or gambling and just like alcohol, drugs or gambling its not necessarily a good coping strategy.
I wonder if the regressed theory could go further than just being attracted to children during particuarly stressful or low times. I wonder if the person is actually internally regressing to a teenager themselves, a time in their life when none of the stresses of adulting existed. Just a thought.
I must thank you for this, edel - although I did read with some trepidation. Although it made me feel as if I wanted to dismiss it to spare my feelings which are on a fairly OK equilibrium just now and I don't want to rock the boat, it also gave me a huge sense of clarity about our son.
For over 2 years we have lived in a state of confusion knowing that for many years he has looked at and collected images of children whilst also living in the most awful relational hell trying to cope with a coercive and controlling partner with serious mental health issues and caring almost on his own for his two children right from their birth alongside keeping a stressful job going. We only had a glimpse of all this as he always insisted things were fine, although we worried about him all the time.
Your description of regressed paedophilia or hebephilia gives us some possible understanding of our son (whose character has always been fairly lacking in confidence) and helps us feel more secure about asking ourselves if he might be the 'p' word whilst also acknowledging that because of what was going on in his life there might be reasons for his behaviour. We had always felt this to be the case but it felt as if we were making excuses for him when we are actually appalled that he should have behaved in this way. Ironically I often said to my husband that I was surprised he hadn't turned to alcohol or drugs to help him survive and get by - little did we know! We also suspect now that he is on the autistic spectrum, albeit very high functioning, which adds another element to all this.
For over 2 years we have lived in a state of confusion knowing that for many years he has looked at and collected images of children whilst also living in the most awful relational hell trying to cope with a coercive and controlling partner with serious mental health issues and caring almost on his own for his two children right from their birth alongside keeping a stressful job going. We only had a glimpse of all this as he always insisted things were fine, although we worried about him all the time.
Your description of regressed paedophilia or hebephilia gives us some possible understanding of our son (whose character has always been fairly lacking in confidence) and helps us feel more secure about asking ourselves if he might be the 'p' word whilst also acknowledging that because of what was going on in his life there might be reasons for his behaviour. We had always felt this to be the case but it felt as if we were making excuses for him when we are actually appalled that he should have behaved in this way. Ironically I often said to my husband that I was surprised he hadn't turned to alcohol or drugs to help him survive and get by - little did we know! We also suspect now that he is on the autistic spectrum, albeit very high functioning, which adds another element to all this.
Certainly the regressed model does suggest a kind of retreat from adulthood into a fantasy world. Some of the autistic men may be emotionally childlike themselves, even if they are physically much older, which I always think is particularly unfair on them.
The film American Beauty is a good examination of how the regressed model would have worked, before the internet came along. If you remade that film today, the Kevin Spacey character would probably be online and chatting to underage girls.
The film American Beauty is a good examination of how the regressed model would have worked, before the internet came along. If you remade that film today, the Kevin Spacey character would probably be online and chatting to underage girls.
Thank you for this, I found it very interesting.
Is it only an attraction to girls that this applies to or were you just using the term girl to make it easier?
I fully believe that attractions can change over time. I read a quote that said "healthy attractions can change, so what's so special about unhealthy attractions that they can't change?" I was a bit annoyed with the StopSo therapist as I think they should be given hope that it can be changed and she didn't want to do that as she said it can give false hope. Given my son was 15 and had likely been abused and repressed these memories and emotions I felt he should be given that hope as his brain is still developing.
This also makes me believe in the imprinting. My theory based on what my son has told me, is he had thoughts about children sexually when he was quite young himself (like 10/11) I think because of sexual abuse but he didn't know why as he didn't remember the abuse and so then thought he must be a P!! Then rabbit hole to prove/ disprove this over next several years. Heartbreaking.
Is it only an attraction to girls that this applies to or were you just using the term girl to make it easier?
I fully believe that attractions can change over time. I read a quote that said "healthy attractions can change, so what's so special about unhealthy attractions that they can't change?" I was a bit annoyed with the StopSo therapist as I think they should be given hope that it can be changed and she didn't want to do that as she said it can give false hope. Given my son was 15 and had likely been abused and repressed these memories and emotions I felt he should be given that hope as his brain is still developing.
This also makes me believe in the imprinting. My theory based on what my son has told me, is he had thoughts about children sexually when he was quite young himself (like 10/11) I think because of sexual abuse but he didn't know why as he didn't remember the abuse and so then thought he must be a P!! Then rabbit hole to prove/ disprove this over next several years. Heartbreaking.
I guess my ex would be the "fixed" type from your description but he is very much also attracted to adult females. His attraction to children developed at puberty and as far as I can tell, developed from low self esteem but also I don't think he ever really developed emotionally from the age of 13. Stress is what tipped him over in the end. He kept a lid on it from age 13 to age 45.
If they are "fixed" do they still have attractions to adults?
I've learned a lot from what you've written. X
If they are "fixed" do they still have attractions to adults?
I've learned a lot from what you've written. X
Also, my ex loved that film. I didn't get it. Until now. I'm off to have a really good cry. X
There is still so much that we do not know about this attraction. The link between being abused as a child and developing an attraction yourself has been discussed a lot and many will point to the fact, that not everyone who has been abused develops that attraction. Plus, not everyone who has the attraction, has been abused. On the other hand, maybe as many as one third of all the men arrested, have been abused. That is far too high for it to be coincidence, in my view.
The other thing that comes up frequently, is emotional congruence with children. That means a person who feels more comfortable being around children, rather than adults. Where this comes from is also unclear, but the men themselves say children are less judgemental than adults and that is what they like about children.
This seems to point towards a self esteem issue. But there could be other factors involved as well. Upbringing and so on.
When it comes to boys or girls. An attraction to boys appears to be more common amongst the fixated type. We have also seen plenty of cases like Philip Schofield, who marry women, but then it emerges later on that they have been gay all their lives.
I just find it impossible to believe that a gay man could spend 20 years in a relationship with a women, if they had no feelings for that person, even if it was just about advancing their career for example. Remember that love is not the same thing as sexual attraction. Something else that we forget when discussing these issues.
The other thing that comes up frequently, is emotional congruence with children. That means a person who feels more comfortable being around children, rather than adults. Where this comes from is also unclear, but the men themselves say children are less judgemental than adults and that is what they like about children.
This seems to point towards a self esteem issue. But there could be other factors involved as well. Upbringing and so on.
When it comes to boys or girls. An attraction to boys appears to be more common amongst the fixated type. We have also seen plenty of cases like Philip Schofield, who marry women, but then it emerges later on that they have been gay all their lives.
I just find it impossible to believe that a gay man could spend 20 years in a relationship with a women, if they had no feelings for that person, even if it was just about advancing their career for example. Remember that love is not the same thing as sexual attraction. Something else that we forget when discussing these issues.
"The other thing that comes up frequently, is emotional congruence with children. That means a person who feels more comfortable being around children, rather than adults. Where this comes from is also unclear, but the men themselves say children are less judgemental than adults and that is what they like about children." This is my ex 100%. He never matured emotionally from the age of about 13 because he wasn't allowed to by very stage and controlling parents. We were together for over 30 years, married for 17 and had children when the first arrest came. He did love me throughout those years, still does but I always felt like we lived as though we were housemates rather than husband and wife. We had intimacy problems right from the start more or less that he allowed me to believe were my fault due to my weight. I bet if I could go back in time, those problems were around times of stress in our lives. Definitely when he started looking at the images, he was under a great deal of stress. No excuse. And it's taken him 8 years to admit this element to me.
edel2020 - I agree that 1/3rd of sex offenders having themselves been sexually abused as children cannot be a coincidence. In fact I would imagine that the number is probably higher as alot of men would not feel comfortable discussing this, it took me 13 years before I disclosed to anyone a fairly minor assault that occured during a sexual encounter, I was completly ashamed of myself for being so stupid as to allow it to happen, I can only imagine how I would of felt if it was a more serious assault or I'd been younger.
As a gay man I think I can see quite easily how a gay man could be in a long term relationship with a women, alot of gay men will at some point usually in their teens or early 20s have forced themselves into a relationship with a women in an attempt to make sure they really are gay. Though not as common today this would of been the norm particuarly in the 70s/80s and earlier (especially when homosexuality was still illegal), whilst there would of been a small number who were out the majority would of have been married and having kids because thats what society expects, its only in the last 20 or so years that societies views have changed and made it less neccessary to hide behind a 'normal' family life. I've spoken to many older gay/bi men who either were or still are married to women, they admit that in their own way they love their wife but as you say love and sexual attraction are two different things.
As a gay man I think I can see quite easily how a gay man could be in a long term relationship with a women, alot of gay men will at some point usually in their teens or early 20s have forced themselves into a relationship with a women in an attempt to make sure they really are gay. Though not as common today this would of been the norm particuarly in the 70s/80s and earlier (especially when homosexuality was still illegal), whilst there would of been a small number who were out the majority would of have been married and having kids because thats what society expects, its only in the last 20 or so years that societies views have changed and made it less neccessary to hide behind a 'normal' family life. I've spoken to many older gay/bi men who either were or still are married to women, they admit that in their own way they love their wife but as you say love and sexual attraction are two different things.